Face of Voter Suppression: Fort Worth Woman, 98 Tells Her Story

Alright then... (0.00 / 0)

...how many people have actually been disenfranchised in states with an ID requirement for voting?

Also... did the identity thieves also steal your:

Drivers License
TX ID card
US passport
Military ID
Concealed Handgun License
All your official government mail
Certified copy of birth certificate
Utility bills
Bank statements
Paychecks
Voter registration certificate
Medicaid card
ID for receiving veteran's benefits
Library card
Hunting license
Fishing license
Student ID card
Marriage license or divorce decree
US citizenship papers
Court record of adoption
Court record of name or sex change
DPS temporary driving permit
Pilots license

You can show any of these under SB362.  

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by: zenit @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 09:57:54 AM CDT

The List (3.67 / 3)

I like this...

Drivers License- Yes (they received a copy by forwarding my mail away from me)

TX ID Card - Don't have one and because my social security number is frozen, I can't get one.

CHL - Don't have one and because my social security number is frozen, I can't get one.

All your official gov't mail - Again, mail forwarded away from me so I have no official gov't mail.  I guess I could wait until every tax season and have one of the two necessary documents but I would still be without a photo.

Certified copy of birth certificate - like the wonderful woman in Fort Worth, mine no longer exists because... well that is too personal for public consumption.

Utility bills - in my roommates name or all done online (no paper, saves the environment)

Bank Statements - paperless

Paychecks - I am a freelancer

Voter registration cert - would be come nullified at point of voting because of previously stated problem

Medicaid card - don't qualify... come on.

Vet ID - not a veteran and impersonating a vet even to vote is a massive crime.

Library card - sadly I am not a member to a library and because my social security number is frozen, I can't get one.

Hunting license - don't have one and because my social security number is frozen, I can't get one.

Fishing license - don't have one and because my social security number is frozen, I can't get one.

Student ID card - not a student

Marriage license or divorce decree - not married or divorced.  

US citizenship papers - Since I was born here and don't have my birth certificate, I am going to ignore this one.

Court record of adoption - luckily I wasn't addopted

Court record of name or sex change - Always been Matt Glazer.  Always.

DPS temporary driving permit - don't have one and because my social security number is frozen, I can't get one.

Pilots license - don't have one and because my social security number is frozen, I can't get one.

The other thing you fail to mention is the cost of each and everyone of these items.  Zenit, are you advocating for a poll tax or a huge cost increase to the state?  The only options are, the state pays for these ID's (according to the Indiana precedent) OR institutes an unconstitutional poll tax.

Thanks for playing this round of know your voter suppression legislation!

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by: Matt Glazer @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 10:12:11 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sounds like you have big problems! (0.00 / 0)

Did you alert APD?

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by: zenit @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 11:55:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes (0.00 / 0)

This is pretty typical for people that have their identity stolen.  Which last time I read happens about every 2 minutes.  That seems like a lot of big problems.  

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by: Matt Glazer @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 12:07:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I addressed the problems with every item listed (5.00 / 1)

in a comment I posted several months ago on this issue.  You can look on my user page to find it.

The Asian American Justice Center documented numerous examples of Asian American voters turned away at the polls in 2008 in states with voter ID laws even less restrictive than the proposed bill because of name matching issues, which are highly common among naturalized Asian Americans with names transliterated from non-Roman alphabet writing systems and who may sometimes go by an "American" name for convenience.

Moreover, voter suppression occurs not just because people lack the requisite documentation, but because they don't have the necessary documentation on them at a time convenient for voting.  If you're a single parent working two jobs who takes the bus because you have no car, and you go to the polls, and you're told you can't vote because there's some issue with whatever ID or documentation you brought, it's often not possible to spend an hour to take the bus back home, find someone to look after your kids for another hour or more while you take the bus back, cast a vote, and then try to make it to the next shift on your second job.  Low income voters are statistically more likely to have less detailed knowledge of voting laws, and thus have problems when attempting to vote in direct proportion to the increasing complexity of voting laws.

Furthermore, there is ample evidence that greater complexity in voting laws increases the incidence of poll workers making improper determinations of voter eligibility.  Numerous eligible voters are ALREADY turned away at the polls because poll workers have incorrect understandings of the law.  In the case of a voter ID law, poll workers would be expected not only to know which forms of documentation are acceptable, but to make determinations as to whether such documentation is authentic.  Even some Republicans have discovered that a major problem with the voter ID bill is that it will not only require poll workers to be election experts, but to be ID experts.

When the other side of the scale is not a SINGLE documented case of voter impersonation, there is no policy justification for such a law.

"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H.L. Mencken

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by: PI Lawyer @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 21:04:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And while we're on the subject... (0.00 / 0)

Bessie Foster - the elderly woman mentioned in the FWST piece - can vote with her drivers license thru July 2010 since SB362 allows a DL that expired up to 2 years ago.

As one of the commenters notes:

"Something is manifestly fishy here. The requirements for ID are specific and a drivers license within 2 years of the expiration date is valid. If Foster's DL actually expired last July it should be good as primary ID (no other document required). Birth certificates may be original or certified copies. The military ID Foster is holding in the photo is also good for primary ID provided it is not expired. If the military ID is expired she has other problems (disenrollment from DEERS and loss of Tricare)."

Foster may have problems getting a driver's license, but she would easily be able to vote (with her military ID and voter registration card) under the provisions of SB362.

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by: zenit @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 10:10:32 AM CDT

Again (0.00 / 0)

Are you saying SB362 is ok because it only makes voting harder and more confusing... not absolutely impossible?

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by: Matt Glazer @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 10:13:26 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Nope... (0.00 / 0)

...I'm saying show me the people who have actually been disenfranchised in states with an ID requirement for voting.  

How many people were found to have been disenfranchised when the US Supreme Court upheld the Indiana law?

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by: zenit @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 11:45:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Read the dissent (0.00 / 0)

Problem isn't the disenfranchised voters, it are the suppressed voters. There is a difference. The Supreme Court (on mostly partisan ideology) upheld Indiana but barely.

Indiana already had some of the toughest voter laws in the country, and now they are marginally worse.

Texas has friendlier voting laws and no voter fraud.

Now in Texas, we are going to have to do a huge media campaign and give out free ID's (also big cost).  If we do neither or only one, we are going to violate the Indiana precedent.  

Indiana has 1 media market?  Texas has over a dozen.

Indian has how many hundreds of thousands of people?  Texas has how many millions?

This is going to be a costly process and for what purpose?

SB362 and every voter ID law makes voting more difficult and increase the cost of voting for either the state OR the individual.  Our state is really good about being taken to the supreme court and having our law over turned (I am thinking mid-decade redistricting).

SB362 will absolutely get kicked up to the DOJ if passed.  Which means we will spend millions on education campaign, millions on giving out identification and millions on fighting this in court.

Isn't there a better way to spend tax payer dollars.  There has been no cases of fraud after spending millions investigating it.

Maybe I am confused, but with tuition rising, electric rates rising, energy demand rising, property taxes rising, a Governor who refuses to take some or most of the Recovery and Reinvestment act funds, and hiring freezes in every level of government... doesn't this seem like a waste of money and time?

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by: Matt Glazer @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 12:16:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Okay... (0.00 / 0)

...so how many people have been "suppressed" by voter ID laws?

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by: zenit @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 13:16:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

1 is too many (0.00 / 0)

Former Texas Republican Party Political Director Royal Masset estimated that a photo ID requirement would reduce Democratic turnout in Texas by 3%.

So let's just estimate that only Democrats will be suppressed. Also, let's assume Democrats only vote in primaries.  That should give us the smallest possible number of suppressed voters.

In 2008 2,874,986 Democrats voted in March.

86,249.58 people will be suppressed by this bill.

Let's continue to round down.  

That will be 86,249 people according Royal Masset's estimation AND using the only way we know how to identify Democrats in Texas since we have open primaries.

Since we have identified me and Mrs. Foster, we only have to find the other 86,247 others!

The reality of it is, this is way too small. 18% of Americans age 65 and over did not have a photo ID. As many as 25% of African Americans do not have a government issued photo ID. And the Texas Department of Vital Statistics reports an average 200,000 marriages and divorces in Texas each year, after which it can take up to two months to get a new ID.

See age, race, and marriage don't see party identification, lets just assume the number will be much, much, much higher.

If you don't want to make that assumption with me, then we will go with Mr. Masset's assumption.

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by: Matt Glazer @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 13:40:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well... (0.00 / 0)

...we established earlier that Mrs Foster has a military ID, with which she can vote under SB362.  So that leaves you: maybe if you print off one of those online bank statements (the environment will forgive you), we can cross you off the list too?

Again, the question was: How many people have been disenfranchised/supressed in the states that have voter ID requirements?  

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by: zenit @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 14:05:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Nuns with dated ID turned away at Ind. polls (4.00 / 2)

How many people have been disenfranchised/supressed in the states that have voter ID requirements?

I'm not sure why a prediction of 86K isn't more important than the number of people who have already been disenfranchised/supressed considering most such requirements are relatively new.  But here's a handful.

From http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24...

About 12 Indiana nuns were turned away Tuesday from a polling place by a fellow sister because they didn't have state or federal identification bearing a photograph.

I'm also not sure why opponents of the bill have to prove the bill is bad.  The burden of proof is usually on the proponents of the bill to show that it will actually create some benefit to society.  

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by: blank @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 14:56:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

But under the Texas bill they wouldn't need a photo ID (0.00 / 0)

They could vote with their Medicare ID.

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by: zenit @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 16:37:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ask the Right Question (0.00 / 0)

You asked a question, and I think I answered it.  Perhaps you should have asked:  

How many people have been disenfranchised/supressed in the states that have the same voter ID requirements as those in the Texas bill?

If that's your question, then I'll answer it too. Honestly, I don't know of any state that has same voter ID requirement as those in the Texas bill.  Hence, we have no history of disenfranchisement/supression because we have no history of the same type of bill.  However, we can still make predictions based upon the number of people not having certain types of IDs and voter registration numbers.  Royal Masset made one that implied the number would be around 86K.  Matt Glazer seems to think that this is a lower bound.  

Unlike Royal Masset and Matt Glazer, I won't try to predict a number.  However, I think the evidence certainly suggests that if this bill is signed into law, then there will be many registered voters who will show up to the polls in 2010, expecting to vote as they have in the past, only to be turned away because they didn't have the proper ID.  I also think that the evidence shows that the number of such turned away voters will be orders of magnitude larger than the number of frauds the bill will prevent.  Hence, the passing of this bill will create an election that is less representative of the will of the people.  This may not bother you, because these turned away voters could have taken steps to acquire such ID.  However, I believe that passing a law that creates elections that are less representative of the will of the people is a tragedy and un-American.  

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by: blank @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 23:14:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Is there now an exemption... (0.00 / 0)

for printed, non-certified materials?  Awesome! I can vote again!

Wait... your question was a hypothetical again... wasn't it?

Last time I checked it was the process of mailing (i.e. the postage certification) that created the exemption.  Since my banking statement is electronic, it doesn't have the certification.

As for your question look at blank's answer and Royal Masset's answer.  If you want to ignore answers, then I am going to stop answering questions.

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by: Matt Glazer @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 16:23:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Voter education (3.00 / 3)

That's also a huge hole in this bill.  There is no money allocated to do voter education in this bill.  Hundreds of thousands if not millions of voters are going to show up to the polls and not be aware that the laws have changed.

Where are the 2 to 3 million dollars for a media campaign to educate voters allocated in this bill?

The author/sponsors conveniently said the SOS and counties have this money in their budgets, so lets not worry about it. I think the bill should have a clear fiscal note with real dollars attached and not hidden or forced on to the counties.  

We know from the testimony on Tuesday or early Wednesday morning that the voter education program that DOJ required of GA cost them at least half a million dollars.  Texas is quite a bit larger than GA and we have quite a few more media markets than they do.

And the costs to do poll worker training to recognize all forms of photo IDs and the process for verifying the voter have not been addressed either.  Those costs are all passed along to the counties.

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by: sonia @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 10:40:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Speaking of drivers licenses … (3.00 / 1)

Something I haven't heard anyone mention yet (maybe it was in the overnight testimony through which I slept): Under current law, an out-of-state drivers license is acceptable a proof of identification. SB 362 deletes the language allowing that. So people who have just moved here - and who may not be thoroughly familiar with our voting laws, or even aware we've had this controversy - could end up disenfranchised. And let's remember - Texas is one of the fastest-growing states in the nation.

Seriously, do we really need to make it harder to vote? Just to stamp out a tiny handful (if any) cases of voter impersonation, we're willing to possibly block thousands of legitimate votes from being cast? When you think of that kind of cost/benefit analysis, it's a no-brainer.

Too weird to be a Texan, too Texan to live anywhere else.

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by: ernesttubb @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 12:37:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If they really meant to fix a problem (3.00 / 1)

they wouldn't have allowed all the non-photo ID options anyway, that's just cover. We all know that forging a utility bill or library card would take about 10 minutes if you really want to do it. Since these non-photo documents are easily forged and hard to detect how does that really stop a determined voter impersonator? Answer: it doesn't it just makes a hassle at the polling location and that's what suppression is all about.

"I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it!" FDR

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by: Blue_in_Guadalupe @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 13:22:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And since you mention forgery … (0.00 / 0)

I'll have to repeat my favorite line that I've already posted on another thread. From The Breakfast Club:

Andrew: What do you need a fake I.D. for?

Brian: So I can vote.  

Too weird to be a Texan, too Texan to live anywhere else.

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by: ernesttubb @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 22:42:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Naive comment (1.00 / 1)

Kids get fake ID's to buy alcohol. Maybe if the pissed off, sore loser Hillary supporters had showed up to vote in November, we'd have taken back the house.

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by: Bluefish @ Sat Mar 14, 2009 at 07:54:37 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re: Face of Voter Suppression: Fort Worth Woman, 98 Tells Her Story (0.00 / 0)

Maryland MVA is now opening the doors for identity theft and voter fraud - and it isn't even illegal to do, even with the Patriot Act.  The Maryland MVA has been singled out for giving driving licenses to massive amounts of illegal immigrants, many of them with false addresses.  Some of the perpetrators have been identified. It is indeed that state agencies are targets for criticism. The Maryland MVA (Motor Vehicle Administration) is now one of the newest and biggest bulls eye painted agencies. A lot of people would give a cash advance to the Maryland MVA to only license citizens of Maryland, or America for that matter.

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by: Robyn @ Fri Apr 17, 2009 at 05:26:28 AM CDT