Blogger for Cornyn: Noriega's "En Espanol" Button on Website is "Offensive"

ahem (0.00 / 0)

Cornyn En Espanol

I'm sure she's equally offended by the junior Senador de Tejas.

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by: Joe @ Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 18:48:31 PM CDT

good find (0.00 / 0)

I don't see one on his campaign site though.

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by: David Mauro @ Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 19:01:44 PM CDT

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It's on his homepage (0.00 / 0)

Find the keyword box and look to the right

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by: Pat C. @ Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 19:05:38 PM CDT

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*not his campaign site (0.00 / 0)

Sorry, don't think there is 'en Espanol' link on his campaign website

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by: Pat C. @ Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 19:08:22 PM CDT

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What many don't understand (3.67 / 6)

Who didn't grow up in multilingual households is that people can have a perfectly functional grasp of English but still feel more comfortable using their native language, particularly when dealing with complex issues with specialized vocabulary such as politics.

My dad speaks English well enough to have earned his master's degree from an American university and work a job where most of his time is spent doing sales on the phone.  Yet my father definitely prefers Chinese language media for his political news because he has a very hard time watching CNN (and all the fast talking and yelling over other speakers doesn't really help).  And when he's trying to straighten out a billing problem with his health insurance company, I know he'd much rather conduct the conversation in Chinese.

The reality is that most immigrants, documented or not, have functional English ability.  Most people who rely on language assistance from government and businesses do so not because they can't speak English at all, but because trying to navigate corporate or government bureaucracy is a daunting task even in English.  When your legal rights might be on the line, you want to make sure you understand everything fully.  How many Americans who have lived and studied in the same foreign country for years would still prefer to use English when going to the hospital or dealing with the police?  There's nothing remotely shameful about that.

"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H.L. Mencken

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by: PI Lawyer @ Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 20:24:49 PM CDT

ABSOLUTELY (3.00 / 1)

I work with a ton of people who speak english well but prefer spanish. Well, truth be told it's less spanish than it is spanglish but you get the point.

Let the crackers whine and complain. Eventually they are going to have the face the tough question... will they let their idiotic prejudice stand in the way of electing someone who might really help them?

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by: McBlogger @ Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:15:16 AM CDT

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Thanks for visiting my little blog (0.00 / 0)

In order to become a citizen of the United States, you must prove that you have at least a passing understanding of the English language. I realize that there are a heck of a lot of Spanish speakers in Texas- I'd have to be deaf not to know that. But, if they're voters, they also know English, right?

In no way am I saying that some Texans should not have access to information about candidates. Where did you get that? And I'm not offended by Spanish speaking voters. That's just ridiculous. I'm talking about common language- a unifying force in the country. How is there communication between people without common language?

I don't come to this without compassion or understanding. Far from it. My grandfather and my godfather came to this country as children from across the sea (my grandfather from Austria and my godfather from Poland). In both cases, they and their parents learned English as quickly as possible. They felt it was important to immerse themselves in the language to truly be American. My grandfather's family spoke very little German by the time I came along, but my godfather and his mother frequently spoke in Polish at home.

Fifty years ago (maybe a little more), immigrants wanted to learn English and use it in society. Now, there's not a need. Each immigrant group (not just Spanish speakers) live isolated lives within their own little community. There's no desire to really become a part of the greater community.  

In the interest of full disclosure, I taught high school Spanish for a while. I'm not ignorant about the difficulties in learning a new language.

Oh, and Perry- really classy. Couldn't find a good enough insult in Spanish?  

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by: BethW @ Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:19:59 AM CDT

Misunderstanding History (0.00 / 0)

There are many Spanish speaking residents of Texas that are NOT voters. I think its shortsighted to assume that only previous voters deserve information about their elected officials, or those running for office. I think we can agree that including a page dedicated to Spanish speakers is a great opportunity to bring more people into the democratic process, encourage people to be informed about elections, and bring them to the voting booth.

There is much communication between people without a common language. I may not be able to speak Spanish, but we can communicate through the images and symbols of our lives. I may not speak French, but a math problem is going to look the same to me and a French student. Communication goes through many mediums, and it is not restricted to speech, and language isn't the only force that can unify a country.

I think your assertion that there is no longer a need for immigrants to learn English for everyday use is just false. Moreover your understanding of immigrant history is wrong. Immigrants have been arriving to the United States since the  industrial revolution in the early 1800s, as technology made it more feasible and more affordable for immigrants to make the trek across the ocean.

Those early immigrants from Western and Central Europe faced many difficulties, but the same comments you make about immigrants living within their own was said about the second group of immigrants from Eastern and Southern Europe (which include Austria and Poland). Opportunities were denied to that group because they were deemed "different" and had no other choice but to form societies within their own to survive in the country.

Thats the same kind of divisiveness inspired by your "offensive" comments. So if you find that foreign-language speaking and foreign-born members of our society are becoming more insular, it may be because we deny them the opportunity to fully participate with our community.

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by: reg @ Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:54:37 AM CDT

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Not divisive... just the opposite (0.00 / 0)

Like I said, I know there are a lot of Spanish speaking residents in Texas. And I understand that they want to have information about government processes. I'm trying to figure out why you want to bring people to the voting booth (if I read your first paragraph correctly) if they're not citizens. If they are legal resident aliens, then they're probably working on their ESL classes, no? Realistically, most information out there concerning candidates and elections (and news in general, for that matter) are written at a fifth to eighth grade level, which should be understandable for most citizens. And, honestly, there are plenty of opportunities for non-English speakers to learn all about the elections and the candidates and news in general (tv, radio, newspapers can all be found in any of a number of languages other than English).

You're right. You can communicate to a certain extent without a common language. Math is fairly universal, but I can't share a story using it, can I? I have a handy little card that I took with me when I traveled through Europe (since I don't know Czech or Hungarian) that had symbols for all the important stuff I might need (restroom, hospital, police, stuff like that). Could I have a conversation about international politics with a Czech citizen at a coffee shop in Prague? Not a chance. At some point, to have more than the most basic level of communication, you need some common language.

I understand what you were trying to say about immigration history in the US. There have always been, within larger communities, smaller communities of one ethnic group or another (Chinatown, Little Italy, etc.) In those parts of town, signs are written in both the native tongue and English. (And I'm fine with that, by the way. In case you think I'm completely English-only.) And I know that there was horrible discrimination when it came to certain ethnic groups (the Irish come to mind, but that doesn't really address the language issue). I still contend that earlier immigrants made more of an effort to learn English if for no other reason than there was no other option. They either learned English (beyond a basic proficiency) or they were left out. The government (and society in general) didn't offer information in 100 different languages.  

How is my assertion that immigrants no longer need to learn English wrong? Immigrants can move to Austin, get a job, go to government offices, and live their lives without learning more than 100 words in English. It's easier if they speak English, but it's not necessary.

How are we denying foreign-language speaking and foreign-born members of our society the opportunity to fully participate in the community? In no other nation are immigrants allowed the opportunities that they are offered here. Immigrants in the US are given every opportunity to fully join society. It's their choice.

You call my "offensive" comments divisive. I see it exactly the opposite. I'm trying to bring everyone together on the same page.  

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by: BethW @ Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 13:47:51 PM CDT

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you haven't really explained (3.00 / 1)

why you find the En Espanol section "highly offensive".  What struck you as so offensive?

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by: Joe @ Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 13:54:53 PM CDT

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hmm... you're right (0.00 / 0)

I guess I never did explain that, did I? (Then again, I'm not sure anyone actually asked me.)

First, why is there a Spanish section, and not a Korean section? Or a German section? Both have communities in Texas (granted, not as large as the Spanish speaking community). If you want everyone to have access, don't you need to include those sections?

Second, why should there be a separate section in a language other than English? When you go to other countries, you probably won't find an English language section on their political websites if English isn't one of their official languages. If someone who speaks English as their original language moves to another country, they're expected to learn a new language.

I realize that English is not the official language of the United States, but it is the de facto language. Why am I considered a hateful person because I'd like everyone to speak the de facto language?

Honestly, I probably shouldn't have said "highly offensive" on my original post. "Offensive" is the correct word, though (according to dictionary.com, one definition is "displeasing, annoying"). Highly was possibly overkill.  

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by: BethW @ Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 16:21:09 PM CDT

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so how do you feel... (0.00 / 0)

...about the en espanol section on john cornyn's site then?

http://cornyn.senate.gov/public/

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 16:51:13 PM CDT

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Someone just asked me that... (0.00 / 0)

... in the comments on my blog. I'm disappointed that he felt the need to put it up, and yes, I'm offended by it. And I will ask him about it if I get the chance to meet him.

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by: BethW @ Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 16:55:42 PM CDT

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All fine (5.00 / 1)

But you never really addressed the points made by me and other folks in the comments, i.e., that a significant number of immigrants and naturalized citizens who speak, read, and write English with decent proficiency are more comfortable with material in their native language, particularly when pertaining to issues that are unlikely to come up in everyday conversation such as politics.

I also think that as a general rule, all people living in the United States should be making an effort towards learning English.  But not all people, even the ones who can focus all their time and energy on learning English, are going to be at the same level of proficiency at the same time.  Having information available in their native tongue maximizes their ability to participate, but the availability of that information in no way means that they will then give up learning English.  Just because my mom prefers calling the Chinese language American Airlines customer service line b/c she'd rather argue in Chinese about her flight cancellation doesn't mean she has decided to abandon speaking English.

Your argument is basically that people in the United States, as responsible citizens or potential citizens, should learn English.  But you never explain why the very presence of government or other materials in other languages thwarts that goal.  Without such materials, the unavoidable conclusion is that even an immigrant conscientiously studying the language is not going to be given easy access to essential government information until they achieve a certain level of proficiency.  I have no problem with your premise; I just don't see how you draw your conclusions from that.

I work with non-English proficient immigrants on a daily basis.  My co-workers and I have had numerous conversations with them about language.  And guess what?  Not a single one of them says they feel no compulsion to learn English.  Quite the contrary - all of them say their lives are enormously difficult without English proficiency.  Read the Travis County Immigrant Assessment Report.  In interviews with immigrants of various backgrounds, all agreed that lack of English ability made life enormously difficult, even with the availability of language assistance.

This is because even though language assistance is available, it comprises such a small part of one's life.  When I lived in Japan, nearly all official business I had to transact had assistance in English, but that didn't make my life markedly easier by any means.  Most of the day to day activities still required knowledge of Japanese, and frankly, more was available in English there than is available in Spanish here.  For example, the menu at the little restaurant in my 5,000 person village in the middle of nowhere had English translations.  With the exception of a few major national chains, I've rarely seen Spanish and English on a menu in a non-Latin restaurant.

It's also empirically false that immigrants today are less compelled to learn English than previously.  It was actually far more likely in the past for people to grow up, live, work, and die in the same ethnic neighborhood.  Modern transportation, communication, and other technology has changed that.  That's why you saw such a precipitous decline in Yddish speakers in the last half century.  During the height of Italian immigration, you could be born in an Italian neighborhood in the US and live your entire life speaking Italian.  A childhood friend of mine's great grandparents lived in a French neighborhood in Massachusetts  for decades and still speak French only to this day. Linguistic research shows that not only is English acquisition today far more rapid and widespread than in the past, but language loss (losing the ability to speak the language of one's ancestry) is also accelerating.

It's also not true that political websites in foreign countries that do not have English as an official language are not available in English.  English language versions of the party and presidential candidate websites exist for Taiwan, where English is definitely not an official language.  German political websites are also available in English.  Japanese as well.

You may believe that the political material on a campaign website should be readable to any immigrant proficient in English, but the fact is my father, whose English is good enough to have obtained a master's degree in mechanical engineering from the University of Buffalo and manage a small computer sales company, still has a very difficult time reading political coverage in English.  And this is a man who can often fool people on the phone into thinking he's a native speaker b/c he has virtually no accent.

As for why the website isn't available in more languages, I'm pretty sure that's a resource issue.  I work on projects that require translation all the time.  Finding qualified translators at reasonable prices who can do the work in a reasonable time is extremely difficult.  If there were legions of volunteers with the time, skill, and willingness to translate the website into Korean, I have no doubt that the Noriega campaign would do it.

I have no beef with wanting immigrants to this country to learn English.  My problem is with the argument that because it is desirable for immigrants to learn English, they should be shut out of entire swaths of public life while they are learning.  Wanting people to learn English and providing language assistance are not mutually exclusive.  Does language assistance provide a disincentive for learning English?  Sure it does.  But so do a lot of things, like having family members who are bilingual.  Is the disincentive strong enough that people are saying, hey, why bother to learn English?  As long as I can fill out my property tax form in Spanish, I'm good to go.  The evidence does not support this view.  And if this were actually the case, well, then it seems like we'd have to do a lot more than not have a Spanish language version of a campaign website to motivate such people.

"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H.L. Mencken

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by: PI Lawyer @ Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 17:47:49 PM CDT

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When did I say... (0.00 / 0)

... that I wanted immigrants cut out of large swaths of public life?

My experience is very different from yours. First, my family pretty much turned their backs on German when they arrived here. English only. A friend of mine was born in the Netherlands and came here as a toddler but speaks no Dutch because his parents would never speak it.

Is the disincentive strong enough that people are saying, hey, why bother to learn English?  As long as I can fill out my property tax form in Spanish, I'm good to go.  The evidence does not support this view.

I have to disagree, at least anecdotally. Another friend of mine works in the Austin area with several people of Mexican ancestry (2nd or 3rd generation American) who speak little or no English by choice- they don't want to learn. I'm not sure I understand that.

As for the websites in other countries, I'm not sure why they would need them in other languages. If I've ever come across a foreign language page, I just call up a translator site and pick through it.

I'm not entirely sure we're not talking about two different things (which is funny, considering this whole thing is based on language and we're speaking the same one). I'm talking about sites like Noriega's which have the most basic of information about him and his views (as I said before, those types of sites are usually geared towards a junior high reading level), and I'm still fairly confident that an ESL reader would get through it. From what I'm reading, you're talking more about political discourse that you'd find on the evening talking heads shows on (pick your cable channel)- native speakers can't always understand what they're talking about. There are plenty of opportunities for other-than-English speakers to get that kind of information (through radio, television, and print media).

Did I make it any more clear?

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by: BethW @ Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 18:47:30 PM CDT

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