Kinky Goes Racial, Again, on Lincoln and Carter

You love Kinky Friedman (0.00 / 0)

Face it, Kinky is good for your blog.  It attracts readers, traffic, and advertising.

Why stop here?  Maybe you could dedicate a blog to Kinky and his works over the past 30 years.  As an "equal opportunity offender" you'd have enough material to keep busy.

Why don't you post the year this was made?  Why don't you include about 3-4 minutes of his standup?

C'mon guys, this is why when people mention the democrat running for governor they say "Chris who?"

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by: walt @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 10:56:28 AM CDT

Actually, we love Texas Politics (0.00 / 0)

Something that I'm not sure that Mr. Friedman realizes he's part of yet. You don't get a free pass when you run for Governor to have your life's works excluded from the conversation.

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 11:01:28 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

No one's asking you to exclude anything (0.00 / 0)

In fact, I'm asking you to INCLUDE more things.  How about more of the clips?  How about a date, a venue? 

Wow, next thing you know BOR will be on sale at the checkout line with the rest of the tabloids.

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by: walt @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 11:18:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

We will (0.00 / 0)

Come back on Monday and hopefully we'll be able to have more up.  We can only do so much at once and I still have that college thing you know. And it's not like I'm getting paid to do this whole blogging thing.

Tabloids? I dare say that beyond the occasional sensational story on Rick Perry's hair or sexuality, BOR often has more real reporting than many outlets.  Though if you want to make up a cover design, be my guest.

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 11:20:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You had time to post another... (0.00 / 0)

non dated, untitled clip, but yet not the whole clip.

Without Kinky in this election, you all would be whining over which sweater Chris "Won't you be my neighbor" Bell would be wearing next. 

Business must be good for you with the Kinkster in the race. 

Mudsling away!

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by: walt @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 16:33:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

ho ho (0.00 / 0)

Check the entry. Apparently you didn't read.

The clips posted to this site are all from a April 16 1980 Rockefellers Club Comedy & Concert routine that Kinky Friedman was paid and profited from. They're not edited, they are his words. We're working to get the full tape up over the weekend.

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 16:40:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Embarrassing (BOR, not Kinky) (0.00 / 0)

Wow, y'all are just piling it on, now. The first joke, even without hearing what surrounds it, is actually funny. I could easily imagine that same joke coming from Richard Pryor. The second joke I just flat-out don't understand. Putting in the context of the rest of the routine might help. What's next, guys – you gonna bring out Jim Mattox to attack Kinky's past drug use?

Again, I'm a Chris Bell supporter, and really don't like the idea of Kinky as guv. But this is an attack-dog, campaign-killer strategy that just distracts from important issues. If you really want to beat Kinky, go after the fact that his positions on issues are little better than one-liners. This just embarrasses me as a Democrat.

Too weird to be a Texan, too Texan to live anywhere else.

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by: ernesttubb @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 11:09:32 AM CDT

It's called politics (0.00 / 0)

If ya can't stand the heat, then get out of the fire.

If you're a Chris Bell supporter and not a 'concern troll' then you'll be happy to know that this is changing the dynamic of the Governor's race.

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 11:15:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Maybe there is nothing wrong with satire or "nigger jokes" (3.00 / 2)

if you are a satirist or a comedian or a novelist or a songwriter or any kind of entertainer.

Many comedians rub people the wrong way - some people can't stand Dave Chappell because they think he's racist and other people can't stand Larry the Cable Guy. And in the marketplace of entertainment, I can choose not to listen to Larry the Cable Guy and someone else can choose not to listen to Dave Chappell.  That's how entertainment works:  Ann Coulter has her audience and Michael Moore has his.

Now, if Michael Moore or Ann Coulter ran for public office, then the qualifying and disqualifying factors are different than if they are merely offering entertainment. If I am offended by Ann Coulter's book, I can just not buy it, but if she is my governor, I'm stuck with that bitch. I'm sure that that some folks would be equally displeased with Michael Moore as their governor.

The problem with Michael Moore or Ann Coulter or Larry the Cable Guy running for office is that their entertainment is polarizing, and deliberately so.  If Michael Moore or Ann Coulter or Larry the Cable Guy were elected, then some large segment of the population would find the views of their elected governor odious, which is a crappy model for a public official who has taken the task of representing all people.

Maybe Kinky and his supporters think it is hilarious to be telling a nearly all white audience "nigger jokes."  Maybe Kinky and his supporters even think he is somehow fighting against racism by telling "nigger jokes" to a lily white audience.  The fact remains that lots of people in Texas (many who are black and many who are not black) just do not agree with that view and do not think those jokes were funny.

Unfortunately, Kinky isn't running for governor of a lily white audience at Rockerfellers; he running for governor of everyone in Texas. Kinky's racial jokes have made him rich, and they have made him fans within the lily white demographic of Kinky's audience, but they aren't going to play well to an audience as diverse as the whole of Texas. 

I don't want a governor who thinks "nigger jokes" are funny, and I am not alone. I'd be dissatisfied if it was Perry who had told such jokes, or Strayhorn, or Bell. It surely doesn't help Kinky that this “nigger jokes” is part of a very large pattern of saying "funny" things with a racial twist.  More importantly, it surely doesn't help Kinky that this pattern of racially divisive comments leaks from a candidate who also supports policies which consistently give minorities the worse end of the deal. 

I’d be a hell of a lot more willing to overlook this if it was an isolated incident and if Kinky did not oppose changing the rules which help kids from underfunded schools (including many minorities) get into Texas’s best colleges and if Kinky hadn’t cuddled up with the xenophobic “Minutemen” border vigilantes.  Too bad Kinky was already on the wrong side of these issues before his “nigger joke” became public because it really undercuts his efforts to portray this incident as anything other than a racial slur packaged as a not-very-funny joke told to a lily white audience.

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by: stopkinky @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 11:22:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

In an perfect world... (0.00 / 0)

We would have not jokes because it would offend people like you who obviously have never been the butt of jokes. That you're aware of.

We are ALL the butt of jokes. Most of us accept it for it is. And don't turn it into a major confronation of civil rights violations and accusations of bigotry.  The best laughter is at yourself.  And your own. You obviously wouldn't know. You're too perfect.

All you all are doing is feeding the rednecks who are all over this state and no doubt will run to the polls in November and vote for Kinky.

For that, I thank you.

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by: Baby Snooks @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 16:19:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You seem to presume I object to Kinky getting the votes (0.00 / 0)

of the ignorant "rednecks" (your word, and Kinky's, too, I might add). I don't feel that way at all.

My only objection is to the media's failure to report that Kinky is a nutcase with a full bag of crappy policy proposals which are anything but progressive. As a result of the media's half-assed coverage, some progressive voters are considering Kinky as a viable option because they do not yet comprehend that Kinky anything but progressive.

Once the word gets out, then I'm fine.

I say let the progressives vote for the most progressive candidate.

Let the "rednecks" vote for the most "rednecky" candidate.

And may the best man (or granny) win.

I just hate to see any progressives vote for one of the two least progressive candidates because the media is too busy reporting on one-liners to address the real substantive differences among the candidates and their varying approaches to the most important issues.

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by: stopkinky @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 16:36:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

this is not funny the carter joke was just plain hate. (0.00 / 0)

finally someone is treating Dick Friedman equally as the others.

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by: hamiltonfan @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 11:25:50 AM CDT

Why does only Bell get a pass here? (0.00 / 0)

You all are clearly partisan, and Kinky--the words he uses cannot be justified ever--but if you have more roll it out.  Shouldn't all be fair game.  Where are Bell's plans not his gripes about what's wrong--we all know Perry is what is wrong--why not focus on the issues--seems Kinky and Grandma Strayhorn are the progressives not the mudslingers.

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by: CB @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 11:27:40 AM CDT

Again... (0.00 / 0)

We've talked about Bell and his issues to a huge extent here on BOR. Forgive us if, for a few days, we talk about something else.

Now, a very great man once said that some people rob you with a fountain pen.

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by: Phillip Martin @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 11:31:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Issues? What issues? (0.00 / 0)

"I'm not serious about some issues," Friedman said. "I don't think people really, you know, I don't think they want to hear a bunch of rehearsed crap." ....

"All the little issues you're talking about are all (expletive)," he said. "It's all (expletives). That's the key. Okay, I mean, you can talk about, 'And I would deregulate this; and my plans is to give a seven percent raise on the textbook.' It's all (expletive) because the people who are doing this are crooks and they're corrupt and they don't give a (expletive) about the people of Texas. That's the truth."

www.stonewalldemocratsofdentoncounty.org

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by: John McClelland @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 12:48:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kinky is NOT progressive (he's to the right of Perry on many issues) (0.00 / 0)

Kinky has ideologically positioned himself on the far right to get the votes of disaffected radical Republicans.

As reported by the Quorum Report, Kinky has pledged on Dan Patrick's right-wing talk radio program that he would not veto Patrick's "trigger bill" to make abortion illegal in Texas immediately upon any reversal of Roe v. Wade by the US Supreme Court.

This puts Kinky to the right of Perry and Strayhorn, who both have refused to commit to signing Patrick's extremist bill.

Chris Bell is the only candidate who would veto Patrick's extremist bill:

“I would veto that,” Bell told The Associated Press on Friday. “I think the majority of Texans are still pro-choice. I don’t think they’re pro-abortion, but they understand that there are instances where that very painful choice is going to have to be made.”... Abortion rights advocates should help “find ways to make it as rare as possible,” Bell said. “But to make it illegal, that’s not the road to go down.”

Kinky also positioned himself well to pick up far right-wing votes when he "stirred up controversy Wednesday when he referred to hurricane evacuees living in Houston as 'crackheads and thugs' who should be escorted out of Texas."

When asked about these comments, Kinky helpfuly explained that "Racism was here before I came around," he said. "I am just trying to bring up these issues within the (expletive) society....As it happens, the crackheads and thugs who remain in Houston after Katrina happen to be black; that's fact."

A few days earlier, Kinky positioned himself to capture right-wing votes on the issue of immigration reform:

He said he supports groups such as the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps because they draw attention to problems on the border.

Asked about his own strategy for securing the border, Friedman said, "I'm not sure. I don't have a plan."

He said he would appoint people who care about the state to develop a plan based on his motto: "Remember the Alamo."

Border safety has deteriorated, Friedman said, because politicians are too afraid to offend Hispanics and get tough on the Mexican government.

On issues ranging from a woman’s sovereignty over her own womb to race to immigration reform, Kinky has flip flopped himself into positions far to the right of all other candidates, including our shamelessly right-wing failed governor.

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by: stopkinky @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 13:16:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

RE: Michael Moore, Ann Coulter and Larry the Cable Guy (0.00 / 0)

Michael Moore and Ann Coulter are political hacks who deserve to be laughed at. 

Only Larry the cable guy is a comedian who deserves to be laughed with. 

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by: spiny norman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 11:41:32 AM CDT

If you like jokes about "rag heads" and farts, Larry is your man. (0.00 / 0)

Me? Not so much, thanks.

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by: stopkinky @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 12:00:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, c'mon.... (0.00 / 0)

I used to own a fart machine that went off in my backpack in church because I accidentally left the thing on...right in the middle of the sermon...talk about the most embarrassing experience I've ever had...although everyone around me was dying laughing...

And I happen to like Larry the Cable Guy's fart jokes and politically correct stories....

www.completethewar.com

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by: sfagrad02 @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 12:53:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I sort of got over his type of humor when I was 12 (0.00 / 0)

This is not funny to me:

"What the hell is this the cartoon network? The Republicans had a muslim give the opening prayer at there convention! What the hell's going on around here! Is Muslim now the official religion of the United States!... First these peckerheads fly planes into towers and now theys prayin' before conventions! People say not all of em did that and I say who gives a rats fat ass! That's a fricken slap in the face to New York city by having some muslim sum-bitch give the invocation at the republican convention! This country pretty much bans the Christian religion virtually from anything public and then they got us watchin' this muslim BS!! Ya wanna pray to allah then drag yer flea infested ass over to where they pray to allah at!"

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by: stopkinky @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 13:20:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I understand. (0.00 / 0)

Satirical humor does require a certain amount of thinking on the part of the listener.
You should probably stick with "knock knock" jokes so as not to overtax yourself. 

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by: spiny norman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 12:15:50 PM CDT

who are you (0.00 / 0)

We put our name on our statements, how about you? Because this is still a Democratic site and I've seen nothing to indicate you are.

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 12:26:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

For those who complain about BOR... (0.00 / 0)

Perhaps if Kinky Friedman weren't a bigot, they wouldn't have so much to write about?  I'm sure that BOR would feel free to write about any other candidate who's said things as amazingly racist as this.  Plus, I LOVE satire, but Kinky just ain't funny.  If you're gonna claim he's a comedian, perhaps he could actually make me laugh! :)

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by: David O. @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 12:48:30 PM CDT

I am..... (2.33 / 3)

An independant Texan who is sick and tired of a two party system that has compleatly and utterly failed the people of this state and this country.

I used to think the the Dems were a little better then the GOP when it came to this kind of crap but I now know better. You are simply playing the race card to try and sway a minority vote. I don't think it's right but I do understand your desperation.

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by: spiny norman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 12:51:45 PM CDT

If you don't like race being an issue... (0.00 / 0)

Perhaps you should back a candidate that isn't a blatant racist... just saying, it might actually work...

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by: David O. @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 13:20:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The tapes, books, songs, (0.00 / 0)

and other things are out there.  No one is hiding that.

But this blog posted an edited clip of a standup act lampooning racists, and you're calling him a "blatant racist"? Perhaps if I kept telling you "Rick Perry is gay, Rick Perry is gay" you'd start believing that too?

I don't like the race card.  Don't play the race card.  Kinky speaks his mind and it's refreshing to get away from the politically correct culture of fear to say what you think.

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by: walt @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 13:43:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If you only knew me... (0.00 / 0)

You'd know I'm FAR from PC.  The furthest thing one can GET from PC.  However, this man has made a living out of making ignorant comments and calling them jokes.  I prefer jokes that are actually... God forbid, funny!  If he were MAKING a joke that had a social commentary, that's one thing.  His jokes merely reinforce steriotypes and appeal to the absolute most base of levels. 

AS far as Rock Perry being gay, that is SO last year!!! :P 

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by: David O. @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 22:43:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Playing the race card? (0.00 / 0)

You really are deaf, dumb and blind when it comes to Kinky's recent statements, aren't you? 

He's been playing the race card himself-to enrich himself as a well remunerated clown and to get himself attention in the Governor's race.

Kinky's got no one but his own loose lips to blame for the attention he's getting now.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 13:58:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And you have such an eloquent way with words... (0.00 / 0)

You're really winning me over with your persuasive prose.

Maybe Kinky won't win, but I guarantee you he'll get more votes than Bell in November. Mark my words.

Kinky has also said lots of things about Jews, Women, Mexicans, you name it.  His life has been documented thoroughly for the past 30 odd years.  You think this kind of character assassination b.s. is a surprise?  You don't think he and anyone who supports him couldn't see this coming.

Bell is scared and annoyed that Kinky is doing so well, so what do character assassins do when they want to win, they attack the integrity of their opponents.  It's politics as usual, yes, and it sucks.  But do you think it's a surprise?  You think Kinky's got skeletons in the closest?  HA!  They're all out there in print and in audio recordings.

But don't just play an edited clip, make the whole show available.  I've asked for this multiple times.  Why is this ignored?  What do the sources of this tape have to hide? 

Kinky is a man who joined the Peace Corps and went to Borneo after being inspired by JFK, who runs an animal rescue ranch, and who has written countless novels, articles, and songs giving millions of fans a good laugh.  When you try and reduce him to a "clown" who's looking to enrich himself, you are really not getting it.  Maybe that's it, maybe the humor is lost on you. 

And you just offended all deaf, dumb and blind people who read this, shame on you.

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by: walt @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 16:29:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kinky speaks for himself. (0.00 / 0)

Kinky Friedman speaks for himself and speaks well for himself off stage. He loves animals, loves people, just likes to poke fun at all of us. Something wrong with that?

He called me a bitch once. I told him not to forget it either.

Chris Bell speaks for himself as well.

Which is why none of us who support Kinky, and that includes African-Americans I might add, would never support Bell.

Particularly after this latest.  The word shameful comes to mind.  Sums Chris Bell up to a T.  Shameful.

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by: Baby Snooks @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 16:34:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, Kinky speaks for himself. That appears to be the problem. (0.00 / 0)

Perhaps if Kinky spoke less often of "punishment by mumbling negroes in prison," or "nigger eggs," or "black crackheads," or "Tejanos playing hooky," we'd be talking about Kinky's suck-ass policy ideas instead of his racially divisive comments.

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by: stopkinky @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 16:40:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

um (0.00 / 0)

The clip is noted what it's from. Read the entry.

I'm beginning to wonder if you actually are Laura Stromburg or are a sock puppet account. Either way, keep pushing and you may push to far. Remember (and I've posted on this yesterday) this is still a Democratic blog and unless you support them down the ballot, I don't have to entertain you here.

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 16:39:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You never struck me as a persuadable (3.00 / 1)

in the first place.

Bell isn't scared, and my annoyance at Kinky's polling is wholly my own.  I'm not involved with the Bell campaign.

My annoyance has been at the media treating Kinky as a "charming", if you will, novelty and letting him appear as something he is not.

A viable applicant for the position of Governor of Texas.

And as for my supposed eloquence, I'll file your assessment of it right where it belongs.

And sleep well tonight.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 17:02:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm right there with ya, Spiny... (0.00 / 0)

I was once a new-Deal liberal Democrat who believed that government knows best...till I was 16, then morphed into a hardcore, right-wing Republican...till I saw that all the two major parties want to do is squabble over which type of issues deserves a big government response- fiscal (Democrats) vs. social (Republicans. Then I became more of a Libertarian when I realized that big government solves nothing- whether it's the issue of abortion or poverty.

www.completethewar.com

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by: sfagrad02 @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 13:59:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Absolutely! (1.00 / 2)

You are simply playing the race card to try and sway a minority vote.

The way Chris Bell works. The low road.

Next Phillip will have a tape of Garnet Coleman channeling Martin Luther King imploring us all to vote for Chris Bell in order to set us all free.

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by: Baby Snooks @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 16:22:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Playing the race card (0.00 / 0)

while accusing others of playing the race card is a little Kabuki even for you, Snooks.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 16:23:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not playing anything... (0.00 / 0)

Just pointing out how others do play the race card. Usually if not always to their own benefit. Not anyone else's.

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by: Baby Snooks @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 23:21:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ha (0.00 / 0)

Now that is funny...

Now, a very great man once said that some people rob you with a fountain pen.

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by: Phillip Martin @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 16:54:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I would just love to see.... (0.00 / 0)

Carlos Mencia run for Texas governor....now THAT would make Kinky sound like an NPR on-air announcer and would be real entertainment for all Texans....between Carlos's race and DEE dee dee jokes....

www.completethewar.com

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by: sfagrad02 @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 12:56:19 PM CDT

Dee dee dee Part III (0.00 / 0)

Again with Carlos Mencia. What is your obessesion with him? Is it the beaner jokes?

Like we've said before, he's not running for governor. Neither is Dave Chapelle, Phillis Diller, the corpse of Rodney Dangerfield or either of the Smothers Brothers. Instead, we're stuck with Kinky Friedman.

www.stonewalldemocratsofdentoncounty.org

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by: John McClelland @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 14:49:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I have met ... (0.00 / 0)

...and spoken with Kinky on several ocassions. He is not a racist. I would not support a racist for dog catcher nor will I stand aside and watch some of the posters here smear the name of a good man.

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by: spiny norman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 13:36:23 PM CDT

There's a word for a "non-racist" who (5.00 / 1)

talks like a racist.

Actually there are two. The milder one is "hypocrite" and the blunt one is "racist".

Neither one of them is one I want attached to the Governor of Texas.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 13:55:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well then you should look at his entire past. (0.00 / 0)

And post his entire past. not just pick and choose what suits your agenda.

(That agenda being to frighten the African American community into voting for Bell.)

Kinky was picketing segregated lunch counters in the 60's. Kinky joined the Peace Corps and went to Borneo for two years.

That's just two examples. If Kinky's a  racist, he aint very good at it!

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by: spiny norman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 14:21:38 PM CDT

Ah, the Texas version (0.00 / 0)

of the Lieberman Defense.

Keep playing that, by all means. 

It just points out Kinky's hypocrisy.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 14:24:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I still don't think they get it (0.00 / 0)

Welcome to politics, but don't get mad when the 'establishment' starts working against you and doesn't eat up your lovefest. Lord knows we've dealt with that plenty of times within the blogs and our own party.

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 14:31:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

True that. (0.00 / 0)

Keep on keeping on.

You all are doing good work.

Except when I disagree with you, of course. ;p

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 14:35:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Bell had overwhelming support from likely black voters (0.00 / 0)

and Kinky had microscopic levels of support from that voting block long before this issue ever made it to the mainstream media.  You should check your facts before you make incorrect generalizations.

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by: stopkinky @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 14:33:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Overwhelming? (0.00 / 0)

The latest Survey USA poll has Bell at 55% among African-American voters. By no standard is that a good number for a Democratic candidate.

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by: jeremytodd @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 14:45:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with polling (or math) (3.00 / 1)

55% support from any demographic in a four-way race is overwhelming support.
For example, as an incumbent Republican Perry has 56% of the Republican vote.

In contrast, Kinky DOES NOT HAVE EVEN 40% in any region, race, age group, or any other demographic.

For comparison to Bell's overwhelming support among likely black voters, Kinky's support is 17% among women (4th) and 13% among those 65 and older (4th), which sucks for Kinky because those are two groups who vote in disproportionately large numbers.

Too bad there isn't separate polling category for "rednecks" (as BS likes to call Kinky's supporters).  Maybe Kinky would have an overwhelming 55% level of support among that group.

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by: stopkinky @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 17:54:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Baby Snooks is not a redneck... (0.00 / 0)

I didn't call his supporters rednecks although certainly that particular base of supporters is going to grow the more you focus attention on the matter.

And by all means, please do. Nothing would please me more than to see Kinky Friedman win with 40% of the vote with votes cast by people who never voted before or stopped voting because they no longer believed in or trusted the Democrats or the Republicans. 

I am one of his supporters. I am not a redneck. Why would I call myself a redneck? Kinky's supporters are like a vibrant rainbow of Texas.  Lots of this and lots of that.  Including humor that "progressive" Democrats apparently just don't get. Maybe "progressive" is just another term for "anal-retentive."

In which case, well, as they say, stick it where the sun don't shine.

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by: Baby Snooks @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 23:38:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And,,,,, (0.00 / 0)

I challange you to show me where I made such a claim.

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by: spiny norman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 14:46:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You said "That agenda being to frighten (0.00 / 0)

the African American community into voting for Bell."

That's just foolish.

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by: stopkinky @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 15:02:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not foolish at all.. (0.00 / 0)

That is what the Bell "operatives" are already doing in Houston and Dallas.

Wave enough money and you'll find ward heelers popping out of every corner.

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by: Baby Snooks @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 23:41:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

polls and Kinky's double standard (3.00 / 1)

1. Polls almost always fail to reach a representative sample of working class voters - especially African Americans and Hispanics. Lots of reasons for it - distrust, language, availability by phone - but that's a well known fact. So when you read the polls, it's a lock that Democrat Bell will do far better than those polls show him doing with people of color (and thus better than the poll in general), another reason he's the only one who has more than a snowball's chance in hell of beating Perry.

2. Do you think Clayton Williams may be thinking that the press would have given him a pass on his "jokes" if he had just been a satirist? I don't understand the Kinky crowd's whining - maybe he's just been the beneficiary of a double standard in the mainstream press for so long that they got spoiled.

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by: getreal @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 15:05:29 PM CDT

Stupid Jew. (2.00 / 1)

Oh. I was just kidding.......

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by: johncoby @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 16:36:09 PM CDT

Emphasis on? (0.00 / 0)

Emphasis on stupid or Jew?  Prejudice is often in the context. Not the words. And in the emphasis placed on words placed together.

Stupid goyim.

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by: Baby Snooks @ Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 04:14:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

More of the same ol' same ol'..... (0.00 / 0)

Let's see if we can simplify this. First, I'm not a progressive or a liberal. I'm an old-school radicalized native Texan hippie, far to the left of either of those other two labels.

In the 60's, myself and a lot of my generation came to the unstartling conclusion that politicians and the party apparatuses (apparati?) that supported them don't have our best interests at heart.

They generally aren't much about anything other than obtaining power and control for their tribe, which includes such entities as other politicians, even those often seemingly their enemies, and anyone, no matter what their background or ideology, who helps them stay in power. You scratch my back, I scratch yours.

Every now and then some sort of outsider populist rises up and gets smashed to the ground from all directions by the insiders. Outsiders who succeed are quickly co-opted and corrupted by an entrenched system that offers dramatic rewards and punishments based on whether you will go along to get along.

If the outsider doesn't play by the rules, he gets broken, or marginalized, or leaves in disgust fairly quickly. And it rolls along.

It's gotten uglier in the last few decades because now, the only people who can't get dragged through the mud are the bland non-entities who've never said or done anything risky in their lives. Other than make money and evade telling impolite truths at all costs, that is.

They most certainly can't have any edge to their personalities or any bite to their sense of humor.

The Texas Democratic party is trying to recover from a near-death experience because of its lack of courage and integrity in this process, beginning with the onset of the serious cultural wars in the Reagan era.

They were just going along and getting along, and feeding at the trough, while the party evaporated over decades as a genuine alternative to the truly loathsome, thuggish Republicans who were organizing and infiltrating at the grass-roots level.

All our leaders, on both sides, do is fight over who gets to eat the biggest percentage of the pie. Unfortunately, the rest of us are the pie. No one serves the citizenry that ostenstibly hired them.

Anyone who interrupts this game will get viciously attacked. In this case, for comments they made 26 years ago -- 26 years!! - my God, man, you weren't even alive then, as far as I can tell from your posts above.

Kinky is undoubtedly a warty creature. He's rough-edged and quick to the quip. Some of the funnies ain't funny -- as anyone creative can tell you, half of the job is to usually fail at funny or brilliant, and still keep creating.

All you do, when you post the above short clips, taken out of context from, not only  the evening in which they were spoken, but of the rest of his life, is to validate the fears and prejudices of people like me.

We're the ones you're trying to win to your cause. We're the ones that you want to convince to vote Democrat because you have good ideas for carrying this state forward and helping drive the cretinous, criminal Republicans back into their ratholes. We're the people who want to believe that you're ready to serve us honorably, intelligently, and fairly.....

Instead, what you offer is more lowest-common-denominator slime, just like them. Regardless of whether Kinky is a racist or a conservative, you reveal that you've been co-opted by the same thought patterns that gave rise to people like Karl Rove. If you can cripple somebody badly enough, maybe the voters won't notice how lame you are.

When you say 'Welcome to politics', you're acknowledging that you think it's valid to engage in the basest of behaviors to win, not the noblest.

The reason that Kinky, good, bad, or indifferent, polls as well as he does, is because he offers an alternative to what a lot of us perceive as the same damn cornflakes wrapped in different packages.

Offer me something better than this manipulative bullshit if you want my vote.

Best regards,

GreyLion

 

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by: GreyLion @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 20:13:17 PM CDT

It's the pattern (0.00 / 0)

You want to put Kinky up as some example of nobility?

He's been making the same kind of remarks in the last few weeks, and the CNBC interview was last year.

Why is there any reason to think the pattern won't continue should Kinky occupy the Governor's mansion?

Or, are you saying  that would be acceptable to you? "Negro" being such a charming word and all.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 20:40:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's your pattern that matters (0.00 / 0)

You're missing my point, perhaps deliberately.

It's not what this sort of attack reveals about Kinky that matters.

It's what it reveals about you and the Democratic Party. Quit playing the game by smearing your opponents.

It's why this country is as fucked-up as it is. Every politician demonizes and distorts his opponent in any way he/she can.

We need statesmen to get us out of this mess. All we get are bullies. Whoever stoops the lowest wins.

And the population gets fed up with governance and we're losing our democracy because the process has become so squalid that anyone with a bone of decency in them, or an IQ above 80, averts from it.

For all I know, Kinky a complete jerk. But I haven't heard him personally attacking anyone yet.

Sure, going negative works. And it's why the voters have progressively disengaged from politic for the past three decades.

Even if every rotten thing you can dredge up about Kinky is true, all you do when you use is it to perpetuuate a broken system.

Democrats should have a natural ruling majority. Get out of the mud, become leaders and statesmen, and you just might have a chance to get us weary, cynical voters to pull the lever for you.

It would be kinda cool to have the chance to vote FOR somebody, instead of having to vote AGAINST the person who's been most successfuly slimed.

Take care,

GreyLion

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by: GreyLion @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 21:16:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What makes you say the "Democratic Party" has anything to do with this? (0.00 / 0)

Truth is, this type of stuff has been floating on youtube, right-wing blogs, left-wing blogs, and elsewhere in the internet for months.

Ask yourself why the media never picked up on this story during the months when Kinky was taking more votes from self-identified Democrats.

Ask why -- after months of dormancy -- did this story suddenly break just days after the SurveyUSA poll showed Kinky taking slightly more self-identified Republican votes than Democrat votes.

Ask yourself why was Perry the first candidate to officially address this issue.

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by: stopkinky @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 21:38:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Once more... (0.00 / 0)

...you miss the point again. Would it parse out better if I used the phrase 'Democratic Party partisans' or 'Democratic activists', rather than just 'Democratice Party'?

It's not about how bad Perry is. People like me wouldn't vote for Perry unless our children were being held hostage. And it's not about how bad Kinky is.

It's about making the Democratic party good.

Comparing your behavior to Perry's by saying that he started sliming first is the core mistake.

This country is so polarized now that you get only the most marginal improvement by these attacks. Yeah, maybe you win a few elections that way. But you further degrade the democratic process and shrink citizen participation in it. The poster named 'stopkinky' below is at least against him for policy reasons.

The true way forward for Democrats is to become a lot better at the jobs they want to be hired for, and to entice the sickened majority back into their camp.

Attack politics won't do that. It's one of the major causes of voter abandonment. All that's left are the haters. And the Republicans will always get more of them than the Dems.

Take care,

GreyLion

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by: GreyLion @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 22:24:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hmmm... (0.00 / 0)

My bad. You ARE 'stopkinky'. this is getting pretty recursive, isn't it?....

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by: GreyLion @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 22:29:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So, where are you on the George Allen question (0.00 / 0)

Should he also be given a pass for the youthful indiscretions, and the Confederate flag in the living room, and the noose in the office?

Or is this dispensation simply for Kinky's benefit?

Yes, I know, you want noble Democratic partisans nobly putting forth their candidate's qualifications.

We've been doing that.

If it doesn't get the traction in the traditional media that these reports do, I suggest your beef should be registered elsewhere.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 22:31:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

George Allen's irrelevant, too (0.00 / 0)

See my other posts in this thread for my arguments on that subject. George's real problem seems to be that he's a moron, and that, like so many insiders, he thinks he's become permanent royalty. (This last was what bit Lieberman in the butt, incidentally.)

The MSM is dying rather quickly. Quit pandering to them. Find your natural constituency and talk openly with them about why you're their hope for a better Texas and a better America.

[Yes, I know, you want noble Democratic partisans nobly putting forth their candidate's qualifications.]

Subtract the sarcasm, and you would be correct. Keep doing it, hard and discouraging as it might sometimes be. This isn't just me being all idealistic and unrealistic.

Have you noticed the idealistic insurgency that's trying very hard to reshape the Democratic party? No more business as usual.

On the traction issue, that and other catch-words and catch-phrases are used by people who are trying to convince themselves that they're being practical in a harsh world. When you find yourself faced with a conflict between doing the right thing and doing the rotten practical thing, it might be worthwhile to re-examine what it is you're actually trying to do.

I'm sick of unethical 'practical' leaders because they consistently end up using their practicality as an excuse to screw us, too, when its convenient and maintains their grip on power.

Take care,

GreyLion

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by: GreyLion @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 22:52:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm part of the insurgency (0.00 / 0)

And, you know the whole basis of an insurgency is the fight.

I've talked to way too many people who tell me, "I like so and so's ideas, but where's the fight? At least the Republicans are strong."

It's discouraging, it's even occasionally disgusting.

But it's the reality of politics.

No matter how noble the idea-perhaps even because of a noble idea-voters need to know you will fight.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 23:02:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree... (0.00 / 0)

The fight is necessary. Never have argued against that.

Just don't end up becoming Bush in the process and killing democracy in the name of preserving it.

If you become your enemy, you've lost the fight.

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by: GreyLion @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 23:28:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It would be cool (0.00 / 0)

And if Kinky hadn't been skating on his novelty you might actually have a point.

But he has, and it's time he was cut down to life size so people can see how small he really is.

The Bell Campaign needs to get its message out, but simultaneously we supporters need to be working to open people's eyes to what voting for Kinky really means. Who he is, and has been for some time.

What is forgiveable, even charmingly rascally, in a court jester is absolutely not to be borne from a Governor.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 22:27:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Let the Repubs do the cutting (0.00 / 0)

They've had more practice and they enjoy it more. Be different from and better than them.

Rise above it. Be glorious. Pull us to you because you're so wonderful, rather than wasting all this energy trying to shove us away from Kinky.

(I don't know any way to make my central thesis on this subject any more condensed and blunt than the above paras. If they don't clarify well enough, I don't know what to say anymore. In any case, it's been a fun evening writing and reading passionate politics, and I appreciate the responses to my original post.)

...Sleepy now...

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by: GreyLion @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 22:36:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No, I get your premise (0.00 / 0)

I just do not concede it.

Your glorious "rising above it" has led to a diminished Democratic party, because the Repubs were willing to fight while the Dems kept trying to rise above.

There is a time to rise above, and there's a time to jump into the mud and fight.

This year is the time to fight.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 22:50:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I get your point, too, actually (0.00 / 0)

I even can go with the bit about needing to fight. But there are ways and there are other ways. Kinky's really not the opponent. The Republicans are.

From what I can tell, with Perry at ~35%, it'll end up turning on whether any of the other three (two, really) emerges as the single candidate to knock him off. Attacking Kinky therefore looks attractive. But stopkinky's methodology is more attractive, to me, at least. The clips that triggered my posting here just feels like manipulation.

Like I said, let the Republicans go after Kinky. For goodness sake, if he's cutting into their base more than the Dem base, you should be leaving him the hell alone. He's doing your work.

The place where we disagree is the concept that the Dems tried to rise above it all and got whacked for that. What they actually did, IMHO, is roll over and stay silent when the Republicans appealed to the worst in our nature.

Rising above it isn't about getting all detached and artificially noble. It's about getting real and proving, over and over, that you have the guts to do the hard things that are right.

The word 'Liberal' is a scare word in American politics and Dems are barely beginning to come back from being perceived as weak, because they didn't have the courage of their convictions. Again IMHO.

Take care,

GreyLion

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by: GreyLion @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 23:16:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

There are three Republicans in this race (0.00 / 0)

and at least two of them are pretending they're not only NOT Republicans, they're not, really, politicians.

This is a battleground year in Texas-and part of that is promoting our candidates while we undercut the opposition.

Do not kid yourself that Kinky is not the political opposition. It's time he was treated like a politician rather than a charming clown.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 12:52:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

kinky as a statesman (0.00 / 0)

haha, now there's a joke I can laugh at.

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 23:24:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

More of a statesman than Perry (0.00 / 0)

Yes/no? :)

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by: GreyLion @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 23:29:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

honestly- no (0.00 / 0)

Perry may be corrupt and have horrible policy, but I can give him credit for at times attempting to be a statesman. If he had to entertain Mexican dignitaries, he's be able to to the whole spiel and probably get a sweet contract out of it too. Kinky'd just crack jokes or call em a wetback (jokingly of course, I'm sure they'll appreciate the humor). So no, I don't think so.

It's not an arguement for Perry, it's an arguement against both.

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 02:45:26 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I feel much the same way you do (0.00 / 0)

I am no huge fan of the Democratic Party, but I am more troubled by the Republican Party (and I think that the Texas Republican party, with its insane right-wing party platform, is the worst segment of the Republican Party).  Earlier today on this website, I was defending Ralph Nader's independent run for president.  And on this website and my own blog, I have said repeatedly that I consider the goal of beating Perry so important that I will vote either for Chris Bell or Carole Strayhorn if only one, but not the other, has a chance of beating Perry (if neither or both have a chance to win, I will vote for the most progressive candidate).

I mention this so you will understand that my criticism of Kinky does not come from any great love for the two party system. I am an independent voter who has never voted any party's straight party ticket, and I cannot recall the last ballot where I haven't voted for at least one Democrat, one Republican, one third-party candidate, and I have deliberately undervoted at least one race.

I would personally much prefer to debate why we must stop Kinky because of his xenophobic immigration policy (which changes by the day but never strays too far from the "Minutemen" border vigilante agenda), Kinky's abortion stance (which is "barely pro-choice" in the exact same way that Perry, Strayhorn, and Kay Bailey Hutchison are all "pro-choice" but which would accept all sorts of improper limitations), Kinky's contempt for the First Amendment's separation of church and state (school prayer, posting some version of the Ten Commandments, and lots and lots of litigation), Kinky's education policy (his public school agenda is a nightmare for the PTA which is a corny organization but an organization which has the kids' interests in a good education at heart, and his higer education would leave many minorities and other poor kids out of Texas' best colleges), Kinky's support of Bush and Bush's war (he voted for Bush/Cheney in 2004 and has said Bush is doing a good job in the Middle East), etc., etc., etc.

I wish the debate was about the fact that Kinky is neck-and-neck with Rick Perry in the fight to turn Texas even farther against the nationwide trend to progressive reform. I wish it was, but it's not.  Blame the media, blame the blogs, blame me if you want, but the debate we have is the issue which the media's microscopic attention span latches upon. If the debate today starts with a discussion of Kinky's racially divisive comments, fine, but maybe tomorrow we can debate why Kinky's proposed policies will leave minorities out in the cold.  Tomorrow we can hope for a better debate, but today the debate is what the news media tells us it is.

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by: stopkinky @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 21:05:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yep. (0.00 / 0)

Basically, I agree with your points.

But you sound like one of those 'moderates' that all the feverish politicians keep chasing. I've had a bone-deep revulsion to Republicans since I was a teenager. I will NEVER vote for one.

I'm so far Left/Down on the political x-y axis (see www.politicalcompass.org to understand that statement) that I essentially never see a politician whose beliefs match mine.

And I don't trust any of them, right or left, to actually have the ethics to behave honorably.

All I'm left with is going for politicians who see their power base as being motivated by an ideaology that I don't consider too harmful to the nation I love.

It's a depressing worldview, and I'm not proud or happy to have it.

The good news for Democrats is that, if they can pull their game up and become a genuine opposition party against the Rethugs,  become statesmen, they've got my vote.

...In any case, this year I'll vote straight Democrat, except for Governor, probably, all the way down. In that sense, and I suspect there are many others like me, Kinky's candidacy is a genuine benefit to the Dems. The down-ticket may well pick up a surprising number of unexpected votes.

But the idealistic teen-ager in me would rather not vote just based on despising all Republicans. We have horrendously low voting percentages in this country, too low to anymore be called a participatory democracy. And it's because the process is so poisoned. People just bail out because they don't have any way of being okay with participating in the stupidity and ugliness.

Quit fighting Kinky, folks. He's an aberration. In most ways, it doesn't matter whether he wins or loses. Your enemy is the Republican Party. Stay focused on destroying their power statewide and nationwide.

Take care,

GreyLion

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by: GreyLion @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 22:03:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I wouldn't necessarily call myself moderate, but I'll vote for (3.00 / 1)

a good moderate Republican over an ideologically bankrupt and corrupt incumbent Democrat who has betrayed the values he ran for office pledging to support.

Given your extreme dislike for the Republicans, I'm surprised you aren't troubled by Kinky past run for office as a Republican and his strong support for Bush and Bush's war.  Here's an interview I would have thought might have convinced you Kinky does not share your values:

Susannah McNeely: ... after your bid for Justice of the Peace in ’86 (when Kinky ran as a Republican), you said you were leaving “that worthless tar baby that is politics” to the young people. What happened that changed your mind and prompted you to run for governor of Texas?
Kinky Friedman: Nothing changed my mind, that’s still correct. This is not a political campaign. It’s a spiritual one—a spiritual calling.
...
SM: So does this idea of the honorable cowboy have anything to do with why you threw your support behind President Bush in this last election? You did, didn’t you?
KF: Yes. I did in this last election, but I didn’t vote for him the first time.
SM: Who did you vote for in 2000?
KF: I voted for Gore then. I was conflicted. . .but I was not for Bush that time. Since then, though, we’ve become friends. And that’s what’s changed things.
SM: So it’s your friendship with him that’s changed your mind about having him as president more than his specific political positions?
KF: Well, actually, I agree with most of his political positions overseas, his foreign policy. On domestic issues, I’m more in line with the Democrats. I basically think he played a poor hand well after September 11. What he’s been doing in the Near East and in the Middle East, he’s handling that well, I think.

I italicised part of that interview to call attention to the impression that Kinky is somewhat bi-partisan.  After this interview, Kinky's statement about voting for Gore was proven false based on Kinky's public Kerr County voting records:

"Quite often, I did not like my choices," Friedman was quoted as saying in Friday's Dallas Morning News.... "The voting record doesn't look strong, but my voting record is better than Dick Cheney's," he said.... According to Kerr County voting records, Friedman voted in the 2004 presidential general election but not in any other contest since 1994.

In addition to the fact that Kinky is a Republican, he's a liar.

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by: stopkinky @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 22:29:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Nail on the head (0.00 / 0)

"Stay focused on destroying their power statewide and nationwide."

All they seem concerned with is getting Chris Bell elected governor. Believing that will take care of the Republicans.

I'm convinced it's the delusion of youth. 

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by: Baby Snooks @ Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 23:47:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

yes (0.00 / 0)

because you are the goto source for all things delusional.

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 02:46:01 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks (0.00 / 0)

but I'm neither young nor delusional.

I do want Chris Bell as the next governor of Texas.

2 Jokers in the executive sequentially is all Texas can afford.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 12:54:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

26 years ago (0.00 / 0)

...lets get over this.

Conservative Yet Pragmatic

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by: rightoftexas @ Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 11:44:20 AM CDT

One year ago (0.00 / 0)

Two weeks ago, this week even, with his insulting response to the NAACP.

I'm tired of cringing every time the Governor of Texas opens his mouth.  Elect a racebaiter who makes the excuse that he was an artiste, and, expect nothing less for four more years.

Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

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by: boadicea @ Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 12:56:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]