Home

About
- Who We Are
- Community Guidelines
- Right to Respond

Advertising on BOR
- Advertise on BOR
- Buy on all Texas Blogs

Advertisements

Search




Advanced Search


Palin's Death Panels Already Exist: Update


by: Libby Shaw

Tue Aug 11, 2009 at 01:54 PM CDT


Yesterday I posted a video clip of a former physician/death decider for Humana and Blue Cross/Blue Shield who had testified at a Congressional hearing in 1996.  Dr. Peeno admitted that she had made decisions in favor of the profit margins that resulted in the deaths of patients.

Thirteen years later, after the Republicans and health care lobbyists devastated all hopes and efforts at any kind of healthcare reform, the death panels remain in full force today.  I suppose this is the reason Sarah Palin suddenly ratcheted down her rhetoric about them.  Someone in the GOP likely reminded Ms. Clueless that um, er, silly, silly woman, the insurance companies are knowingly killing off patients.  Don't bring attention to it for crying out loud!

Poor, poor short-sighted, seriously uninformed Sarah.  That woman does not know when to quit.   This time she let the real death panel genie out of its hole in hell.  

ADVERTISEMENT
Today in Salon.com

The "death panels" are already here
Sorry, Sarah Palin -- rationing of care? Private companies are already doing it, with sometimes fatal results

Gives us a grim picture of what is going on behind the scenes in the healthcare insurance industry.

Opponents of reform often seem to skip right past any problems with the current system -- but it's rife with them. A study by the American Medical Association found the biggest insurance companies in the country denied between 2 and 5 percent of claims put in by doctors last year (though the AMA noted that not all the denials were improper). There is no national database of insurance claim denials, though, because private insurance companies aren't required to disclose such stats. Meanwhile, a House Energy and Commerce Committee report in June found that just three insurance companies kicked at least 20,000 people off their rolls between 2003 and 2007 for such reasons as typos on their application paperwork, a preexisting condition or a family member's medical history. People who buy insurance under individual policies, about 6 percent of adults, may be especially vulnerable, but the 63 percent of adults covered by employer-provided insurance aren't immune to difficulty.

Mike Madden shares a few of folk's healthcare horror stories.  It took their staff less than one hour to research the cases below.

Die, baby, die.

The future of healthcare in America, according to Sarah Palin, might look something like this: A sick 17-year-old girl needs a liver transplant. Doctors find an available organ, and they're ready to operate, but the bureaucracy -- or as Palin would put it, the "death panel" -- steps in and says it won't pay for the surgery. Despite protests from the girl's family and her doctors, the heartless hacks hold their ground for a critical 10 days. Eventually, under massive public pressure, they relent -- but the patient dies before the operation can proceed.

Ever had acne?  Off to the gallows you go!

-- In June 2008, Robin Beaton, a retired nurse from Waxahachie, Texas, found out she had breast cancer and needed a double mastectomy. Two days before her surgery, her insurance company, Blue Cross, flagged her chart and told the hospital they wouldn't allow the procedure to go forward until they finished an examination of five years of her medical history -- which could take three months. It turned out that a month before the cancer diagnosis, Beaton had gone to a dermatologist for acne treatment, and Blue Cross incorrectly interpreted a word on her chart to mean that the acne was precancerous.

Let babies suffer.  Bilk taxpayers.  Break families.

David Denney was less than a year old when he was diagnosed in 1995 with glutaric acidemia Type 1, a rare blood disorder that left him severely brain damaged and unable to eat, walk or speak without assistance. For more than a decade, Blue Cross of California -- his parents' insurance company -- paid the $1,200 weekly cost to have a nurse care for him, giving him exercise and administering anti-seizure medication.

But in March 2006, Blue Cross told the Denney family their claims had exceeded the annual cost limit for his care. When they wrote back, objecting and pointing out that their annual limit was higher, the company changed its mind -- about the reason for the denial. The nurse's services weren't medically necessary, the insurers said. His family sued, and the case went to arbitration, as their policy allowed. California taxpayers, meanwhile, got stuck with the bill -- after years of paying their own premiums, the Denney family went on Medi-Cal, the state's Medicaid system.

Writhe in  agonizing pain.  It's not our problem.

In October 2008, Michael Napientak, a doorman from Clarendon Hills, Ill., went to the hospital for surgery to relieve agonizing back pain. His wife's employer's insurance provider, a subsidiary of UnitedHealthCare, had issued a pre-authorization for the operation. The operation went well.

But in April, the insurer started sending notices that it wouldn't pay for the surgery, after all; the family, not the insurance provider, would be on the hook for the $148,000 the hospital charged for the procedure. Pre-authorization, the insurance company explained, didn't necessarily guarantee payment on a claim would be forthcoming.

The company offered shifting explanations for why it wouldn't pay -- first, demanding proof that Napientak had tried less expensive measures to relieve his pain, and then, when he provided it, insisting that it lacked documentation for why the surgery was medically necessary. Napientak's wife, Sandie, asked her boss to help out, but with no luck. Fortunately for the Napientaks, they were able to attract the attention of a Chicago Tribune columnist before they had to figure out how to pay the six-figure bill -- once the newspaper started asking questions, the insurer suddenly decided, "based on additional information submitted," to cover the tab, after all.

This is just the tip of a very horrible iceberg.

And so Ms. Dazed and Confused, let me ask you a question.  Now that you are no longer on Alaska's dole, who is your healthcare insurance provider now?  Can you even get insurance considering that you have a special needs child?

Palin's soul-mate and likely opponent in 2012, Newt , said the government could never be trusted to manage healthcare.  He's fine with the insurance companies doing what they do.

"You're asking us to decide that the government is to be trusted," Gingrich -- who may, like Palin, be running for the GOP's presidential nomination in 2012 -- told ABC's "This Week With George Stephanopoulos" on Sunday. But as even a quick glance through news coverage of the last few years shows, private insurers are already doing what reform opponents say they want to save us from. (The insurance industry, pushing back against charges that they're part of the problem, said last month that "healthcare reform is far too important to be dragged down by divisive political rhetoric." The industry has long maintained that its decisions on what to cover are the result of careful investigations of each claim.)

I guess those delusional and manipulated teabagging deathers are just fine with things the way they are too.

And leave it to the Republicans to dredge up the bottom feeding Hitler's sheep in this country.   A large segment of the teabagging deathers are hateful racists.  This time they spray painted a Democratic congressman's office with a swastika.

Rep. David Scott, a Georgia Democrat, who came under scrutiny after accusing a local doctor of "hijacking" a recent town hall meeting is standing by his remarks and says some of the conservative protesters are motivated by racism.

Mr. Scott, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus, appeared on Fox Business's "Happy Hour" Monday afternoon to give his side of the story after a Washington Times report of his contentious town hall was linked by the highly-trafficked Drudge Report over the weekend.

During the interview the congressman said "drama" over health care reform was being manufactured by right-wing protesters and has produced an uptick in racially-motivated attacks.

"There were tea baggers all over the place," the congressman said of his past town hall meeting. Later in the interview Mr. Scott produced a flier for the television camera that had an image of President Obama styled as The Joker.  "If you look at this, that's a picture of President Barack Obama," Mr. Scott said holding the sign up. "He's grinning there like here's the clown from Batman. Underneath that it says Nigga, nigga David Scott. It says you were, and you are, and you always forever shall be but a nigga. If that ain't it I don't know what is."

I guess this is the best we can expect from the likes of Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and their Republican Party.  Death panels and swastikas.  That is what the GOP is about.

Update: Diarist andreww at Daily Kos reveals Palin presided over her own death panels while governor of Alaska. Oh, so now we know why Palin wants us to have more civilized debates about HRC.  

I'm telling you folks, anytime a Republican screams about something horrible, chances are that they themselves are doing it or have done it.    

Tags: , , , , , , , , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Math question? (0.00 / 0)
Heard President Obama say that half of the cost of the health care plan over the next 10 years($1 Trill.) will be paid for by savings from Medicare.  Also said NO benefits would be cut and no premiums would be increased.  In 2008 total Medicare expenditures on Medicare are estimated at 325 billion. Can this be possible?  Is this 1+1= 4?  Or is this just creating facts for support?

Cutting the overcharges (3.00 / 2)
is what I think he means. For example, did you you know that if you "rent" a wheelchair paid for by Medicare that the medical supply company can charge the government for a very long time. So, what was a $400 chair turns into thousands and thousands of dollars for the company that "rented" the chair to the patient. I know about this directly from a family member. Stuff like that.

Here's an example:

"Debbie Brown used to process medical and dental forms for a living before a debilitating illness forced her into early disability retirement and left her in a simple, no-frills wheelchair -- a rented wheelchair that has cost taxpayers about $1,200. Brown says the public should be outraged about her wheelchair. Why? She says she could buy a comparable wheelchair on the Internet for $440 if she had the money.


[ Parent ]
Actually you may have a fraud case . . . (0.00 / 0)
Medicare pays 41.95 a month for months 1-3 and 33.56 a month months 4-13, for a standard wheelchair for a total of 461.50.  After that the patient owns the chair.  In fact only about 50% of patients rent the chair until its owned. Many patients only need them for 3-6 months and return them the the Medical Equipment dealer and they stop billing Medicare.  

Medicare has already drastically reduced reimbursement for medical equipment, payments to nursing homes and physician fees. In fact in medical equipment they are starting competitive bidding and an accreditation program that increases administrative costs to dealer many times over.  This program starts September 1st and is estimated to drastically reduce equipment dealer choices.  

Being in the business for over 10 years and seeing the cuts in reimbursement I don't see $500 billion in savings.  Thinking it might be over stated by a lot.

In looking at health care reform remember the scariest words you can hear, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help".


[ Parent ]
"I" (0.00 / 0)
don't have a fraud case. I just cited an example of something I know about first hand. Saying that you've been in the business for 10 years and then being so helpful by telling us to be afraid of the government...I just don't know. I guess I should believe you?

[ Parent ]
Not in the insurance business . . . (0.00 / 0)
I own a medical equipment company that bills Medicare for wheelchairs.  I know exactly how much they pay and know that the most you get paid for a standard wheelchair (over the 13 month rental)from Medicare is 461.50. I am saying that the anecdotal story you cite may be incorrect. AND my point was to give every day real world experience with Medicare and actually defending it against your accusation of waste. "A $400 wheelchair turns into $1200".  I'm still trying to figure out how $500 Billion is going to be saved in Medicare to pay for the Health Care plan as President Obama promises.  

[ Parent ]
It's not an accusation (0.00 / 0)
of fraud. It was fraud according to the current understanding of it. I am not making it up. I'm glad to know that you aren't among the ones that have participated in it.

[ Parent ]
P.S. (0.00 / 0)
If you do find fraud or someone having Medicare pay $1200 for a standard wheelchair, call 1-800-HHS-TIPS (1-800-447-8477) which is the Inspector Generals Medicare fraud and abuse hotline.

[ Parent ]
So (0.00 / 0)
you always tell your customers that they "own" the wheelchair after a certain period of time?  

[ Parent ]
Medicare requires equipment dealers to (0.00 / 0)
 inform the patient as to how much Medicare is paying for the rental as well as that if they meet Medicare criteria for the equipment for 13 months then Medicare stops paying rental and the equipment becomes the property of the patient.  If during that 13 month period the patient's condition improves to where they no longer need the equipment the dealer picks the equipment up and stops billing Medicare.  i.e. post hip surgery patient only needs a chair for one month the dealer gets paid 41.00 by Medicare and that includes delivery and pick-up. Not a lot of room to save $500 billion to pay for public health care.  

[ Parent ]
The Big Picture (0.00 / 0)
of fraud and waste is so much more than medical equipment fraud:

The United States spends more than $2 trillion on health care every year.  The National Health Care Anti-Fraud Association estimates conservatively that at least 3 percent-or more than $60 billion each year-is lost to fraud. Although it is not possible to measure precisely the extent of fraud in Medicare and Medicaid, everywhere it looks OIG continues to find fraud against these programs.  In addition to the enforcement actions cited above, OIG opened 1,750 new health care fraud investigations in FY 2008. [emphasis added.]


[ Parent ]
So we have established (0.00 / 0)
that fraud is inherent in these two GOVERNMENT RUN programs (emphasis added).  Do we think private run health care insurance would stand for this.  If they do they go out of business.  The government can simply print more money or take more of ours to make up for the fraud.

[ Parent ]
Enough already (0.00 / 0)
You hate government. We get that.

[ Parent ]
And (0.00 / 0)
(emphasis added) is for statements within "quotes" that you bold or italicize or change in some way for emphasis ~ not your own statements.

[ Parent ]
The problem (0.00 / 0)
Elizabeth, you're making the case against a government run health care system. Again it goes back to economics. I don't care if you guys on the left don't want to believe or accept economic principles, but you can not escape them. There are economies of scale and there are dis-economies of scale. Government run health care is demonstrating a dis-economy of scale. It is too big to function efficiently. Therefore there is tremendous waste and numerous ways to commit fraud. So often the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. There's a reason why most companies can only grow to be so big. After they reach a certain size, the cost and resources to function at that size become greater than the income. Government, no matter how much those on the left may love expanding it, is not immune to that principle.

Nonetheless, the liberal solution is more government. There's a bunch of fraud so, let's put in more bureaucrats to monitor the fraud. Never mind that we have countless ones doing that already and they fail at it, but let's keep doing the same thing, that doesn't work, until it works. I won't dispute the complaints about insurance companies being greedy, but the solution of allowing government to do ever more isn't any better than the insurance companies' greed. If they weren't so entrenched in our lives and in our medical decisions, they couldn't be nearly as greedy as they are.  


[ Parent ]
The Fraud (0.00 / 0)
is coming from the businesses, not the government. Not enough regulation (from government entities) to keep everybody honest. Republican control of "government" from 1994-2006 (12 years)...the same Republicans that hate government. The "liberal solution" is not "more government," it's better government.  

[ Parent ]
Yes it is coming from business (1.00 / 1)
Would be silly for the government to defraud itself.  Point is private insurance reduces fraud because they are responsible for making a profit or at least maintaining a positive cash flow in the case of non-profits.  The government bureaucrats don't care because its not their money and if they need more money they just come to the taxpayer.  

[ Parent ]
Utilization management is not a bad thing (0.00 / 0)
While there are certainly examples of insurance companies denying payment for wrong reasons, overall the process of determining what should be paid for (called utilization management) is necessary. There are, rightly, guidelines for what will be covered and what won't be covered. Without them, and without someone making the determination, anything any doc ever wants gets paid for. And unnecessary utilization is a huge part of the cost problem in health care.

The Republicans are creating straw men with this death panel thing. But the correct response from Democrats is NOT to turn it into a 'government should do it versus private companies should do it' debate. This post does just that, in my view. Both you and they assume utilization management is always and only a negative, when in fact, it is an important component of controlling costs. UM is a tool, and like any tool it can be abused - but when implemented well it is a useful tool. Does anyone really think an insurance company (or public plan, for that matter) should pay for care that is not necessary or effective?  


But (3.00 / 1)
who is making that decision? Shouldn't doctors be making that decision about "care"?  You seem to be saying that the "insurance industry" knows what's best for us. That it's a given for doctors to just go hog wild without strict guidance. Is that really what you mean?

Health care should not be "for profit," for doctors or for any business entity.  That phrase, "utilization management" is very creepy. You sound like you work in the industry.

Maybe you can't see the problem.

 


[ Parent ]
I didn't (5.00 / 1)
mean to say that doctors shouldn't make money for providing medical care.  Doctors should be getting the fees for services. As it is now, medical insurance companies are making huge sums every month before services are even rendered for any illness. And then they're telling the doctor what they'll pay even though we've already payed them a lot. And then they're paying their CEOs millions and millions of dollars. This just isn't right.  

[ Parent ]
Government health care already has UR (Utilization Review) (0.00 / 0)
Although not caller UR, Medicare already uses it.   Being an equipment provider we provide equipment the MDs order and get qualifying information that Medicare requires.  In 15-20% of the cases Medicare denies the claim.  We collect more information send it to review and then to secondary review. We see these patients personally and it is not our policy to provide equipment that is not needed.  We certainly would not fight for payment for something medically unnecessary. My point is that, there is UR in government health care. In our case the next time we have a denial reversed and Medicare actually pays for needed equipment will be the first time.  

[ Parent ]
Or maybe you and I see different problems (0.00 / 0)
Elsbeth, insurance is not the same thing as entitlement to any and every medical service your doc might order. The question to ask vis-a-vis insurance companies is NOT are they providing any and everything a doc might order. The question is, are they providing medically necessary and appropriate services as outlined in the policy. There are also questions about fairness of premium, transparency of coverage details, whether the company is cherry picking, etc -- there is a good bit in there that merits reforms, yes. But no one can seriously argue that there should be no oversight of or guidelines for utilization. When you go to a restaurant, you get a menu and you place your order. Giving them $25 for the steak does not entitle you to all you can eat. Saying the insurance company should sell you a policy (which contains coverage details) but give you anything you want even if it isn't covered is pretty much the same thing.

Health policy experts and people on both sides of the debate generally agree that overutilization - meaning, use of medical services that is unnecessary or inappropriate - is a problem. The estimate is in the neighborhood of 30% of overall health spending. Insurance companies stopped tightly managing care after the managed care backlash several years ago and now they tend to let people have anything they want (thus, ever rising premiums). Did you read the New Yorker article by Atul Gawande? He explains the issue very well. It isn't about denying people needed care. It is about the care that's provided that doesn't improve outcomes - or doesn't improve them any more than a less expensive alternative does.

I don't disagree that inserting the profit motive into something can distort it. And I would not cry if tomorrow all insurance companies turned not-for-profit. But I think it is unreasonable to expect doctors to work for no profit - do you really think they should work for free?

If I sound like I work for the industry, I guess it is because I sort of do. I used to work for the TX Medicaid program and now I do consulting work for Medicaid programs and for managed care organizations that do Medicaid business. So I have sort of been on both sides of the fence. I totally believe health care is something a compassionate society ensures all its members have access to. I understand why universal coverage is important - morally and practically. I support providing it free or subsidized to the poor and low income. I see lots of problems in the small group and individual insurance markets. I see reforms that need to happen in the large group market. I see reforms that need to happen in Medicaid and Medicare.

I see plenty of problems. But the one I see that you apparently do not is the problem of health care costs and projected growth in cost. It is a real problem. And this insurance-company-as-villain trope is not helpful in solving any of the problems I see. In fact, it distracts from the complex, difficult task of real system reform.



[ Parent ]
Just because (0.00 / 0)
you "define" it as a "trope," doesn't mean it's any less a problem.

So, this rise in health care costs that you seem to be saying has little to do with the insurance industry...well, then how do you see "real system reform"?

I did not say doctors should work for free. If I wasn't clear...health care should not be "for profit." It should be for our health care, only. I think the insurance industry has been allowed to run amok. And they're really running the whole show. The trope lives on.


[ Parent ]
What research are you looking at (0.00 / 0)
that indicates insurance companies are the primary or even a major factor in health care cost growth?

Drew Altman of the Kaiser Family Foundation (a non-partisan research organization widely respected across political lines) wrote recently about the differences between how health policy/economics experts and the public view the underlying problems in the health system.
http://www.kff.org/pullingitto...

Real system reform? I think a very high-level description would be: changing provider payment and employer/individual tax incentives to encourage efficiency and quality, as well as ensuring that everyone has access to medical care (which includes both universal coverage and addressing the primary care shortage we will exacerbate by bringing lots of new people into the system). It also includes reforms to insurance - but it might surprise you to learn that the insurance industry offered up many of the major needed reforms earlier this year and generally supports Democratic efforts to prevent abuses and ensure fairness.  


[ Parent ]
William Frist (0.00 / 0)
is on the Board of Trustees of the Kaiser Family Foundation...and the Kaiser Family Foundation partners with Fox (as they proudly proclaim on their Web site)!!

I love this slogan they have for their project together (FOX and Kaiser):

"When you give yourself a minute to think, you give yourself a chance to make a better decision."

But back to Frist. You do remember Senator William Frist, don't you?

Schiavo case

In the Terri Schiavo case, a brain-damaged woman whose husband wanted to remove her gastric feeding tube, Frist opposed the removal and in a speech delivered on the Senate Floor, challenged the diagnosis of Schiavo's physicians of Schiavo being in a persistent vegetative state (PVS):

"I question it based on a review of the video footage which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office."

Frist was criticized by a medical ethicist at Northwestern University for making a diagnosis without personally examining the patient and for questioning the diagnosis when he was not a neurologist. After her death, the autopsy showed signs of long-term and irreversible damage to a brain consistent with PVS.

Frist defended his actions after the autopsy. Various complaints against Frist, a licensed physician, were filed with medical oversight organizations, but no action was taken.

Medical school experiments

While in medical school, Senator Frist was involved in a lab project which entailed dissecting feline remains. In a 1989 autobiography, Frist described how he "spent days and nights on end in the lab, taking the hearts out of cats, dissecting each heart."

After some time, Frist said "[he] lost [his] supply of cats." The project, which needed to be completed as part of the medical school curriculum, could not be finished without another supply of cats. Frist several times obtained cats from animal shelters, falsely suggesting that he wanted to adopt them as pets. In his autobiography, Frist attributed his behavior, which he described as "heinous and dishonest", to the pressures of school. [emphasis added.]

Anytime anyone titles an article, "The Experts vs. the Public on Health Reform," (your link) well, that's just condescending as it can get and smacks of propaganda to boot.

Oh, and in fact, it probably is.

America's Health Insurance Plans (AHIP) - the lobbying arm of the insurance industry - maintains that "for every dollar spent on health care in America, approximately 1 penny goes to health plans' profits." The group's health care reform website offers the helpful visual of a subdivided dollar bill: "Fact Check: Setting the Record Straight on Health Plans' Profits," one blog post exclaims. Only one one-hundredth of the premium dollar is pocketed by the insurer, the rest is spent on providing medical care.

But as NPR's All Things Considered points out the group's "fact check" is itself misleading, since insurers are measuring their profits against total health care spending, not company revenues. "All that statement says is, if you eliminated all our [insurance company] profits, national health spending in America would be 1 percent lower. It has meaning only in that context," health care economist Uwe Reinhardt explains. Within the context of companies' revenues, insurers skim off 15-20 percent of premium dollars for administrative costs and profits. In fact, an examination of insurers' medical loss ratio - the fraction of revenue from a plan's premiums that goes to pay for medical services- suggests that within the last 10 years, insurers have been spending less on medical care and more on administrative costs or profits.[emphasis mine.]

And the "research" I'm looking at is my own life. If insurance companies are not a huge factor in health care reform, then why are they making so much money while their expensive premiums (especially for individual policies) offer very little other than huge bills in the event medical care is necessary.

Unless you are with a "group" policy provided by a "big" company, your options with health insurance are not good. Oh, unless you are very, very wealthy.

And in that case, you can have the finest health care with all the latest technology that the world has to offer. And who needs health insurance in that case??

You lost me with Bill Frist...just so you know.  


[ Parent ]
Donna Shalala is on their board too (0.00 / 0)
Seriously, Kaiser is widely respected. I apologize if you thought I was being condescending by citing that article. I was just pointing out that what most people think and what the evidence actually shows (which is what the 'experts' immerse themselves in) is not always the same thing in health care. I don't dismiss your experience, but you probably know the hackneyed saying - the plural of anecdote is not data.

I am not arguing that insurance companies have never done anything bad. And I'm not arguing that the industry doesn't need reforms (it certainly does, and as I pointed out, the industry itself offered up some very important ones). My original problem with this post is that it echoes and perpetuates a message ("insurance industry is evil") that I think distracts from a rational debate that moves us toward real solutions.

Many conservatives ignore evidence, are selective about the information they use to back their claims, twist information so they can interpret the world to fit their ideology or rile people up, refuse to accept that their view of things might be limited or colored by ideology. I have condemned them for that, and I would be a hypocrite if I didn't call out those on 'my side' when they do the same or similar. In watching the health care debate unfold over the past several weeks, it has been really difficult to see some on 'my side' approaching the conversation in hardly more rational a way than the people disrupting town hall meetings or saying health reform is about death panels.  


[ Parent ]
Seriously (0.00 / 0)
"I don't dismiss your experience, but you probably know the hackneyed saying - the plural of anecdote is not data."

Why don't you share your "experience and knowledge of data" with a BOR diary? Personally, I like "real-life" stories. But I agree that "data" can often tell a very different story.

You say you are a Democrat, I hope you will speak to that as well. Your own diary will be the best place to tell how the cow ate the cabbage.

In the meantime ~

[...]

I was born during the Depression in a little community just outside Waco and I grew up listening to Franklin Roosevelt on the radio.

Well, it was back then that I came to understand the small truths and hardships that bind neighbors together.

Those were real people with real problems.

And they had real dreams about getting out of the Depression.

I can remember summer nights when we'd put down what we called a Baptist pallet and we listened to the grown-ups talk.

I can still hear the sound of the dominoes clicking on the marble slab my daddy found for a tabletop.

I can still hear the laughter of the men telling jokes you weren't supposed to hear - telling about how big that old buck deer was, laughing about mama putting Clorox in the well when the frog fell in.

They talked about war and Washington and what this country needed.

They talked straight talk.

And it came from people living their lives as best they could.

We're going to tell how the cow ate the cabbage. [emphasis added.]

I look forward to your diary.


[ Parent ]
LOL (0.00 / 0)
I appreciate the encouragement, but I can barely keep up a mere 140-word Twittering about health care (twitter.com/hopemorrison) much less do a diary. I've maintained a blog for years, the most current iteration has not seen me for a few months, I think. This thread represents way more time than I usually spend on my online 'contribution' to the discussion. :)

[ Parent ]
Well, I'm glad I made you laugh (0.00 / 0)
But it's not really the time for laughter on this issue. The fact that you work in and/or for the industry colors your world view. Many of us believe there is an "urgency" to health care reform. The way you write doesn't persuade me in any way simply because there is no urgency there. I don't know if this is by "design." But I'm not convinced (by the way you have framed your words) that you see any of this as urgent. Working and "consulting" for the industry likely requires you to write this way. These are my impressions.

I find this excerpt from the Bill Moyers interview (with the former Vice-President of Cigna) more persuasive than you have been in this discussion. Maybe getting out of the business is the only way to get a clear and unambiguous view from those who make their living from it. Lots of urgency from Mr. Potter...in his own words:

"I was insulated, I didn't really see what was going on, I had seen the data...":



[ Parent ]
Food profit (0.00 / 0)
If health care shouldn't be for profit, then you must really be irate that the food industry is for profit, or at least most sectors of it. Most people can live a very long time without heath care. I don't know anybody that can go a very long time without food. Food is vastly more important than health care. Food should certainly not be for profit then, right?

[ Parent ]
I would be very happy (0.00 / 0)
to charge you very large fees for food.  

[ Parent ]
Beautiful (0.00 / 0)
The tolerance and open-mindedness of the left at its finest. There's no sinister undertones in that comment at all. Besides, even if you charged me really high prices for food, while I don't make alot of money, I would probably still eat better than Obama's half brother in Kenya.  

[ Parent ]
You don't make a lot of money? (0.00 / 0)
what kind of insurance do you have?

[ Parent ]
Actually the purpose of this post (3.00 / 2)
is to remind folks that insurance companies do make profit motivated decisions that sometimes result in the deaths of and/or unbelievable hardships on patients, as revealed by the article above in Salon.com and from the sworn testimony of Dr. Peeno in the video clip below.

It makes no argument in favor of replacing private insurers with a public option.

Sarah Palin actually did us a favor by reminding us that insurance companies death panels do indeed exist.  


[ Parent ]
The View from Your Sickbed (0.00 / 0)
is the title of an ongoing series at Andrew Sullivan's blog at The Atlantic. For those of you unfamiliar with him, Andrew Sullivan is a sane conservative who's been doing yeoman's work for several years at debunking a lot of the right-wing craziness.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlan...

http://andrewsullivan.theatlan...

This is just a couple of the potst in the series. Just as a sidenote, I highly recommed Sullivan's blog for what thoughtful conservatives are thinking.


White House web site on HCR (3.00 / 1)
If anyone has questions about any of the myths surrounding healthcare reform the White House has a website that addresses these very myths.  Not that any Republican will bother when their only intention is to kill HCR altogether.

Eight years of Reagan.  No healthcare reform.  Eight years of W.  No healthcare reform.  Eight years of Clinton.  Republicans and their soul mate lobbyist buddies killed health care reform.  If they are serious about healthcare reform Republicans would have done it by now.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/real...


Subject (0.00 / 0)
Yep, that's right, big insurance and big pharma have death panels. So, what does Obama do, he cuts backroom deals with them. It's so bad that even Reich has to criticize this guy. http://robertreich.blogspot.com/
Bush must be proud of Obama right now. Change we can believe in . Si se puede!!

No matter what plan is in place, private sector or government run, someone will be deciding who lives and who dies based on what is going to be paid for. It's a very simple and fundamental economic principle. Unlimited wants(or needs) versus limited resources.
The only question that is really relevant through this whole issue is do you want government making those decisions for you or insurance companies? That's really what this entire issue boils down to.

Real reform should include greatly reducing government's role in health care and drastically reducing the role of insurance companies. Why should insurance be involved at all if a person goes to the doctor for a cold, or physical, or the flu? Why should insurance be involved at all when I go to get a prescription filled? Should car insurance pay for an oil change or pay to fill up my gas tank? Of course not, it's for catastrophic situations like an accident.  But yet we believe health insurance should pay for simple doctor's visits. It's amazing how when people think things are free, or at least at greatly reduced costs, the demand increases and prices actually go up. Meaning look at the prices of health care since insurance companies and government have become more involved and people pay less out of pocket for basic services. The prices aren't going down.

One of the Sullivan links makes a great point that consumers(patients) have no idea what something costs when dealing with doctors or hospitals. This must change. More informed and thus smarter consumers will lead to better decisions which drive down prices. When I walk into a restaurant the price is on the menu, why aren't the prices displayed in doctors offices or hospitals? This obviously would not apply in life threatening emergencies because decisions must be made instantly, but the overwhelming majority of medical treatments are not life threatening.

There are many great ideas for reform and I don't hear them coming out of Washington from either party, because they both are in the pocket of the big companies and they both are there to satisfy their own lust for power.


Choices (4.00 / 2)
The only question that is really relevant through this whole issue is do you want government making those decisions for you or insurance companies? That's really what this entire issue boils down to.

If it really came down to it and I don't think it would, why on earth would anyone want a profit driven insurance accountant to make a decision about one's care?  That should be up to us and our doctors, thank you, and it would be were it not for insurance company gate keepers.

A doctor who has been treating me for years and whom I know quite well believes insurance companies should be out of the business of health care altogether.  His staff spends most of its time fighting with insurance gate keepers.  He spends a lot of time raising money to cover those who don't have insurance or have been denied treatment by the insurance co.,  don't qualify for Medicaid and are not old enough to be on Medicare.  He treats people and tells them to pay him back when they can even if they can only manage $5.00 a month.

It is ridiculous that highly trained doctors have to do this while insurance CEOs are pocketing millions of their insurers' money.  The insured pays them so the industry can pump millions into killing something that would be so much better than what the insured presently have.  It is insane really.  

Those deathers out there have no clue how they've been manipulated and lied to by a bunch of self-serving greed mongers.  


[ Parent ]
Boiling it Down (3.00 / 1)
Those deathers out there have no clue how they've been manipulated and lied to by a bunch of self-serving greed mongers.

Amen. And Amen.


[ Parent ]
Are deathers Obama voters? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
No idea (3.00 / 1)
The "deathers" are being manipulated by the likes of Sarah Palin and the right-wing mobsters. Most of them didn't vote for Obama. Or do you have something more than an opinion about that? Facts are always good.

[ Parent ]
I just don't know what a "deather" is other than (0.00 / 0)
the definition you posted, "they've been manipulated and lied to by a bunch of self-serving greed mongers" That was why I asked if they were Obama voters.

[ Parent ]
The "deathers" (0.00 / 0)
are the people that are spouting the "Obama will have death panels" line of bs.

[ Parent ]
Can we start to call those (1.00 / 1)
who take everything Obama says as true without question, "believers".

[ Parent ]
Realty Check for folks who (0.00 / 0)
won't put their hand over their ears and scream no, no, no.



Think about your last two posts. (0.00 / 0)
It would be very similar to a Republican saying that if you have questions about the war in Iraq check the website WWW.GeorgeBushWhitehouse.com  You have to get independent information or better take the time to read the bill.  Politicians are car salesmen.  They will not give you the whole truth.

[ Parent ]
Personally (3.00 / 1)
That's not true. I vote for politicians with the idea that they will do a good job. And then I don't vote for them when I believe they haven't. But I'm always engaged with the process.

Politicians can only be as good as the constituents they represent. If they're bad, then it's because we are, too. Sorry to disagree with your cynical philosophy of the way it works.  


[ Parent ]
Definition of a deather (3.00 / 1)
A deather is one who believes Sarah Palin's outrageous claim "Obamacare" means death panels will decide who gets to live and who dies.  Dumber than a doorknob Palin apparently does not know the insurance companies are already doing that.

Deathers are predictably right wing extremists and racists who oppose healthcare reform despite the fact that most would benefit from it. Indeed most of the deathers at town hall meetings are on government run Medicare and most already have healthcare insurance. Their only goal is to disrupt and prevent conversations between politicians and their constituents.

What the deathers are really opposed to is not actually healthcare reform, but Obama himself, as recently suggested by Paul Krugman of the New York Times.  It is who President Obama is that really upsets many of them.

Right wing extremists, crazies and racists are ones who are are manipulated by the likes of those called out by Frank Schaeffer.  



Source? (0.00 / 0)
Indeed most of the deathers at town hall meetings are on government run Medicare and most already have healthcare insurance.

Got a source on that, particularly the Meidcare claim? I'd really like to see it. And one that isn't a left winger like Krugman, maybe someone that's indpendent.  


[ Parent ]
Google it (3.00 / 1)
Don't be so lazy.  Do your own research.

[ Parent ]
Google it (3.00 / 1)
Don't be so lazy.  Do your own research.

[ Parent ]
Research (0.00 / 0)
Maybe if you did your own (research), you could bring some stronger comments to the discussion.  

[ Parent ]
Not so extreme afterall (0.00 / 0)
Has Rachel Maddow done a segment about the nearly 8 years that the left called Bush-Hitler, evil and a Nazi and what that means and if it was "an implicit call for politically motivated violence?" Or what about making a movie about Bush's assassination, or writing a book about it?  Were those implicit calls for politically motivated violence? When the left calls Bush, Hitler, the Devil or evil and Vanity Fair runs a picture of Bush as the Joker, that's ok. But how dare anyone say that about the Great Obama.

I didn't think I'd ever defend Palin on something, but she makes some decent points here. http://www.facebook.com/note.p...
And she's using liberals and Democrats' own words to do it. Plus, the Senate Finance Committee just announced they're dropping that language from their bill. Can't blame them for that. http://thehill.com/leading-the...

Surely you remember Obama's comment to Jane Strum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
He admitted that in some circumstances a pain pill might be administered instead of a pacemaker and that basically it will be the government making that decision...hum

Finally, these words from the Palin link..." My original comments concerned statements made by Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, a health policy advisor to President Obama and the brother of the President's chief of staff. Dr. Emanuel has written that some medical services should not be guaranteed to those "who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens....An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia."

Then we have the case of  Barbara Wagner from Oregon. You folks familiar with that one? It's the one where the government run health care in Oregon wouldn't cover her anti-cancer drug, but it would pay for her physician assisted suicide. FORTUNATELY, one of those evil pharmaceutical companies stepped in and actually gave her the medicine for free.  http://www.lifesitenews.com/ld...

When you couple the language in the House bill(read section 1233, page 425) with Obama's own words or Dr. Emmanuel's own words and circumstances that have already happened in a state like Oregon, there's nothing extreme at all about using the term "death panels." Just like there's nothing extreme about saying insurance company bureaucrats sit on "death panels" too.  

And playing a clip from his Portsmouth campaign, I mean health care stop is very interesting. I'm pretty sure that's where he said the private sector does something better than government while trying to make the case for the government to have a bigger role in health care. While I get he was saying the private sector can successfully compete with government(which is an entirely different discussion) it was a really dumb way to make the argument.


Oh heaven help us (5.00 / 1)
Freedom lover?  Give me a break.

Your comment rings the same as those of a right wing kissing cousin I have. Your arguments are an exact clone of his.  Unfortunately and fortunately for me, I am included my cousin's email distribution list.  And I read them.

My cousin's emails are also similar to those of the teabagging deathers who show up at town hall meetings, with guns and all, like the guy from NH.  And signs that read "Abort Obama."   Cool.    Totally over the top cool.

They are similar to those who read from prepared scripts straight from spewers of hate and lies like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.  Like the woman who shrieked at Senator Specter in a PA town hall meeting. She self-righteously screamed while reading from prepared notes.   Madame also enjoyed the lights and cameras of the media present.

MSNBC's Hardball interviewed the very same screaming woman last night and it seems that she has no clue as to how much her annual income is.  When asked if she and her husband earned over $250K a year, Ms. Screamer said her husband takes care of the financial stuff.  Ms. Screamer also said she's never been involved in politics before, despite 9/11 and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I think Madame has been properly outed.

And speaking of Bush/Hitler and Nazi talk, volumes could be written about that, however, most unfortunately, most right wingers don't read much.  Otherwise most would have noticed this:

A Holocaust scholar, Michael Berenbaum smacks down the Republicans for their analogies of Nazism.

President Obama's health plan honors that very principle by entitling the patients to be reimbursed for consultations with their physicians to discuss end-of-life issues. That measure is the essence of humane and moral medical policy--the antithesis of Nazi medicine and Nazi practice.

(We should also consult with clergy to ensure that decisions are compatible with both science and faith.)

That is not to say there is no place for a Nazi analogy in this debate. The Nazis rose to power by mastering the art of propaganda, repeating lies so frequently and so widely that eventually people took them as truth. Hence the importance of seeking out the truth, and exposing those who would engage in such deceit.

Freud taught us about projection: Those who would compare Obama to Hitler or his policies to Nazism ought to look in the mirror.

Look in the mirror indeed.

 


[ Parent ]
Google it!!! (0.00 / 0)
Love the answer. . . if you don't believe that ANYONE opposing Obama care is not racist, a Nazi or on Medicare Google it.  After all if you put it on the web it must be true.  

I now know how we are so screwed up.

After all I don't have to read the bill, Obama will tell me what it says.  Rachel Maddow says, ___________(fill in the blank.  

I believe someone called it intellectual laziness.  

Don't take Obama's, Maddow, Harballs word, READ THE BILL.  Reads the same no matter your age or race.

BTW what is not a right.  


[ Parent ]
I Read the Bill (3.00 / 1)
Why don't you quote the bill instead of telling us to "read the bill."  Seems that's what all the right-wing talkers have been spewing for days, now, too. Old Sean Hannity claimed that he was actually reading it yesterday morning. Oh, I'm impressed with him, now. He's a real trooper. Of course he kept spewing the "Death Panel" BS right after he claimed to be reading "the bill."

Since there is no final bill, I just hope he knows that he will need to read another big one, really soon. Poor Sean. He won't get his beauty sleep. Poor baby.  


[ Parent ]
Hey Elsbeth (0.00 / 0)
This is like old home week back at the Dallas Blog. :)

[ Parent ]
I wondered (0.00 / 0)
what it was. I can't believe any of it, anymore. :(  

[ Parent ]
And (0.00 / 0)
I re-read what I wrote and to be clear, old home week at the Dallas Blog is way scary. It must mean they've gotten out. None of us is safe. ;)

[ Parent ]
Actually Rachel does not (0.00 / 0)
tell viewers what to think or believe. If she did her viewers would 1. abandon her show and 2. would read whatever the subject of discussion is anyway.  Democrats, especially liberals, read, read and we read.  Rachel is popular b/c she is intelligent and she assumes her audience is likewise intelligent.  She does not scream or interrupt her guests, either.  Unlike right wing pundits Rachel is no demagogue.

Republicans on the other hand, as we can witness from the town hall circuses, believe every word spewed from Rush, Glenn and Sean's mouth chapter and verse.  If any of them read a lick of anything other than hate email and snail mail, they wouldn't get so manipulated and worked into a frenzy over blatant lies and misinformation. They would not show up with "Abort Obama" signs or bring photoshopped posters of Obama with a Hitler mustache.  Nor would they bring guns to a town hall meeting.

The poor devils don't even know how they are being used by the usual suspects mentioned in my post below.

If anything horrible happens at one of those town hall meetings, the GOP and its propagandists own it lock stock and barrel.  


[ Parent ]
NY Times Outs Death Panel Liars (0.00 / 0)
On today's front page. I'm telling you righty rights, you ought to read more and listen to Glenn and Rush less.  And oh, by the way, advertisers like Proctor and Gamble and State Farm are fleeing from Beck's show b/c of his hate talk.

Introducing the usual suspects:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08...

Advanced even this week by Republican stalwarts including the party's last vice-presidential nominee, Sarah Palin, and Charles E. Grassley, the veteran Iowa senator, the nature of the assertion nonetheless seemed reminiscent of the modern-day viral Internet campaigns that dogged Mr. Obama last year, falsely calling him a Muslim and questioning his nationality.

Here's a real blast from the past:

Rather, it has a far more mainstream provenance, openly emanating months ago from many of the same pundits and conservative media outlets that were central in defeating President Bill Clinton's health care proposals 16 years ago, including the editorial board of The Washington Times, the American Spectator magazine and Betsy McCaughey, whose 1994 health care critique made her a star of the conservative movement (and ultimately, New York's lieutenant governor).

Last night on MSNBC's Ed Show, the Republican guy who wrote the end of life provisions in the HRC bill said Grassley, Palin and others spewing trash talk about death panels are outright liars.

The GOP is in a real state of disrepair if its leaders Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin and Chuck Grassley are bold face liars.  
 


Huh? (0.00 / 0)
Did you actually read that NY Times article? How does that prove what Palin or Beck or anyone else says is untrue? It says, here are the people that are saying this, then it quotes people saying it's not true...well ok? How does that tell me it's wrong? I don't think Obama wants to have 'death panels" but I also wouldn't trust any politician, especially a Washington one, with the authority to be determining what money is going where to pay for people's health care and end of life decisions, especially with the onus on "saving money" and "cutting costs" that is coming out of Washington.  

Obama claimed doctors are cutting off people's feet to get $30,000-40,000 in reimbursements, A LIE. If it's happening, it's criminal that Obama isn't naming these doctors and prosecuting them.  But yet the NY Times article said "the council's recommendations cannot "be construed as mandates or clinical guidelines for payment, coverage or treatment." But yet, in Obama's mind, we have doctors doing unnecessary procedures to make money, also remember cutting out children's tonsils when it's just allergies, and yet the federal government won't be dictating whether or not doctors can do these things? So then how does this save costs? How is this any better?

In regard to your other response to me, when all else fails, just group someone who is refuting your arguments into the class of racists. Ad hominem is such a great debate tactic. And make sure not to address the issues. I don't get my info from Rush or Beck, but if what I'm saying agrees with them, so be it, then they're saying the right things about this issue.

spewers of hate and lies like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.

I sure hope you're not implying that this website is a bastion of love and kindness and tolerance of opposing views.

Some of the posters  on here have demonstrated arguably the biggest problem with American politics on both sides. Disgusting adherence to party dogma and their politicians. I used to be a Republican and voted for Bush in 2000, now the modern Republican party disgusts me. Bush was a joke, compromised our rights(possibly with good intentions but so what) got us into a war that either had false premises or didn't achieve it's premise of finding the WMD's, spent money like a drunk guy trying to hook up with a girl at a bar and made the country weaker in the long run...just to name some of my problems with him. So in turn, the country elects the "change" candidate Barrack Obama, who embraces the worst traits of Bush, staying in Iraq, screwing around in Afghanistan, spending money like it's monopoly money and violating our privacy(warrantless wiretaps to name one instance) and calls this change.

How about this, you read the bill and I'll read it(I have read parts of it, like Section 1233, pg 425-430). We'll probably disagree on what it means. So will the countless lawyers and regulatory bureaucrats that will have to understand it and carry it out. That will lead to confusion, mistakes and inefficiencies or more of what we have now. But when I disagree about what it means, that seems to make me a racists, interesting.  


[ Parent ]
OK so I may have been tempted (5.00 / 1)
to take you seriously until you wrote

Obama claimed doctors are cutting off people's feet to get $30,000-40,000 in reimbursements, A LIE. If it's happening, it's criminal that Obama isn't naming these doctors and prosecuting them.

I know a few interns at a UT med school who said that some patients with diabetes who could not afford to pay for daily insulin medication, or were unable, b/c of poverty, to follow a proper diet would sometimes have to have their limbs amputated.

This falls beyond the pale of contemptible negligence, as far as I am concerned.

And speaking of beyond the pale in the horror dept., why is no one screaming about W.'s having lied us into a war in which over 4,000 Americans have been killed and tens of thousands have been maimed?  Why are those who served are not receiving treatment for post traumatic stress disorder and depression?  Why is the suicide rate among our military at an all time high? Why did our Congress turn its backs on our military during the W. war years?

I never suggested that all who oppose President Obama are racists.  But the likes of powerful lobbyists such as Dick Armey and his "FreedomWorks"  and other Republicans who are pimped out to the healthcare insurance industry are fomenting hate, fear and discontent among this very group.  

Thanks to the orchestrated screamers those with genuine concerns about healthcare reform are not able to have a productive conversation with their elected representative at the town hall meetings.  

The powerful interest groups are hell bent on shutting out a democratic conversation about healthcare reform.

Tom Delay, Dick Cheney and W. ushered in the lobbyists who wrote the policies, including energy, that we are presently stuck with.  And none of the war hawks mentioned above served in the military either.  They have no clue what sacrifice means.  


[ Parent ]
Connect With BOR
Your source for Texas politics.

On Facebook: BOR
On Twitter: @BOR
On the Go: Mobile App

Upcoming BOR Events

"Do I Look Illegal?"
Arizona GOP Debate Watch

Wednesday, February 22
6:00-9:00 p.m.
Angie's Restaurant
1307 E. 7th Street
RSVP on Facebook

Save The Date:
Super Tuesday Super Watch Party!
Tuesday, March 6
6:00-10:00 p.m.
Scholz Garten
1607 San Jacinto



Menu

Make a New Account

Username:

Password:



Forget your username or password?


Shared On Facebook

Advertisement

Best of Texas Left
- (Complete Directory)
- B & B
- Bay Area Houston
- Blue Bloggin
- Bluedaze
- Brains and Eggs
- Capitol Annex
- Collin County Democrats
- Collin County Observer
- Community Forum
- Dog Canyon
- Dos Centavos
- Easter Lemming Liberal
- Eye on Williamson County
- Feet to the Fire
- Grading Texas
- Greg's Opinion
- Grits for Breakfast
- Half Empty
- Houtopia
- In the Pink Texas
- Kiss My Big Blue Butt
- Letters from Texas
- McBlogger
- Mean Rachel
- Musings
- North Texas Liberal
- Off the Kuff
- Panhandle Truth Squad
- Para Justicia y Libertad!
- Pink Dome
- San Antonio Mayor
- South Texas Chisme
- StoudDemBlog
- Texas Clover Leaf
- Texas Kaos
- The Caucus Blog
- There..Already
- Three Wise Men
Best of Texas Right
- Blogs of War
- BlogHouston
- Boots and Sabers
- Lone Star Times
- Publius TX
- Rick Perry vs the World
- Safety for Dummies
- Slightly Rough
- Urban Grounds
Other Texas Reads
- Burka Blog
- D Magazine
- DOT Show
- Statesman Elections
- Strong Political Analysis
- Texas Monthly
- Texas Observer
- The Texas Blue
- Quorum Report Daily Buzz
Around Austin
- Austin Bloggers
- Austin Chronicle
- Austin Contrarian
- Austin Metblogs
- Austin on Two Wheels
- Austin Real Estate Blog
- Austin Statesman
- Austin Texas Bike Shit Stuff
- Austin Towers
- Austinist
- Capital MetroBlog
- Daily Texan
- Do512
- Downtown Austin Blog
- East Austinite
- Elise Hu
-
Flash Mob Austin
- Keep Austin Blue
- M1EK
- Travis County Democrats
- University Democrats
TX Progressive Orgs
- ACLU Legislative Blog
- Atticus Circle
- Criminal Justice Coalition
- Equality Texas
- NOW Texas
- PFAW Texas
- Public Citizen
- SEIU Texas
- Tejano Insider
- Texas AFT
- Texas HDCC
- Texas Watch
- TFN
- TSTA
- TSEU
- Texas Young Democrats
- United Ways of Texas
TX Elections/Returns
- TX Returns 1992-present
- TX Media/Candidate List

- Bexar County
- Collin County
- Dallas county
- Denton County
- El Paso County
- Fort Bend County
- Harris County
- Jefferson County
- Tarrant County
- Travis County

- CNN 1998 Returns
- CNN 2000 Returns
- CNN 2002 Returns
- CNN 2004 Returns
- CNN 2006 Returns
- CNN 2008 Returns
Traffic Ratings
- Alexa Rating
- Quantcast Ratings
-
Syndication

Powered by: SoapBlox