"Guns on Campus" Bill Zooms through Texas Senate

8/1/66 (0.00 / 0)

Pure irony that a UT blog would be against self defense.

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by: Bluefish @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 01:28:51 AM UTC

This is not about self-defense (0.00 / 0)

There is virtually no violent crime on college campuses. Against what do you intend to defend yourself? That makes me very uncomfortable, you thinking you're seeing all this supposed crime. What poor student are you going to accidentally shoot because you feel persecuted?

John Woods

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by: John Woods @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 02:25:44 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

in 3...2...1... (0.00 / 0)

Waiting for Bluefish to point to today's knife-point robbery at UT. Because adding a gun to that situation would help!

Actually, the proposed law wouldn't change that situation at all since it occurred outside on campus where concealed carry permits are already allowed.  

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 03:00:27 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

More extreme far left blather from K-T M (0.00 / 0)

Thank goodness for Senator Whitmire and the others that broke ranks with the extreme left of our party. Common sense of self-defense overrules the grab your ankles and let it happen response that extreme left D's espouse. We need more Joe Horns!!

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by: Bluefish @ Thu May 21, 2009 at 03:08:12 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

5/4/70 (0.00 / 0)

Kent State Massacre by Ohio National Guard. Four dead in Ohio, with nine wounded by sixty seven shots fired into a crowd of anti-war protesters in thirteen seconds.

There was a significant national response to the shootings: hundreds of universities, colleges, and high schools closed throughout the United States due to a student strike of eight million students, and the event further divided the country, at this already socially contentious time, along political lines. I was in high school at the time in a very redneck part of Houston. There was an intense reaction, even at the high school level, to this event.

Good thing students were not armed on college campuses during the Vietnam War. I am very pro-gun in general, but I am not up for guns in bars, hospitals, courthouses, churches, and schools unless they are carried by law enforcement officers. Let's make this a good common sense argument, not that all good Democrats are anti-gun rights in general and against guns on higher educational campuses in particular.

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by: ssuits @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 03:39:52 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

good for you (0.00 / 0)

I am glad that you are very pro-gun, but with a Texas CHL, guns are already allowed in liquor stores, churches, hospitals and amusement parks.  This is in the law and cannot be disputed.

In fact, a CHL holder can go onto UT campus (or any other college campus) and walk around and be perfectly legal so long as he does not enter a building.  This law would simply allow a CHL holder to enter the building.  How does entering the building turn a responsible gun owner and CHL holder into a possible threat?

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 15:09:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Property Rights (0.00 / 0)

If a property owner or organization chooses to ban weapons on their property that is their choice and right. I pack a pistol almost everywhere I go either on my hip or concealed. As a peace officer, I resent being disarmed at airports and at federal courthouses, but I learned to live with it.

I also realize that if I am out of uniform and involved in an incident involving gun fire, I am subject to being hit by friendly fire from other peace officers responding to the incident. So if an officer tells you to drop a gun, you best do it, whether a CHL holder or not. I know I am.

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by: ssuits @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 15:54:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

property rights (0.00 / 0)

Since when does a government-run public institution of higher education have private property rights?

If a private university doesn't want guns on campus, fine.  But a public institution is another matter.

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 16:18:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Public Insitutions? (0.00 / 0)

The Travis County Courthouse is a government-run public institution also. So do you think CHL holders should have a right to pack their guns in court rooms as well as public college class rooms?

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by: ssuits @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 16:38:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

judges can (0.00 / 0)

Judges can carry inside a courtroom under TX law, and there are many incidences of judges going off the deep end or breaking laws.  I don't agree that they should be able to carry but nobody else can.  But that's beside the point.  

However, due to the type of work that takes place in a courtroom, I agree that it is one of the very few places where guns should be restricted.  In a courtroom, you have a life and death decisions being made regarding the outcome of criminal and civil cases, and the chance for a convicted individual to come and take revenge against a judge/prosecutor is high, just as the chance is high for a victim's relative to go and try and take revenge against an accused individual.  I think that a college classroom is a completely different environment with completely different situations where the limiting of lawful possession of handguns is unwarranted.

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 16:48:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

And double fail to Bluefish (0.00 / 0)

Seeing now that you references the 1966 Tower shootings, I thought I would reply with the following from today's Austin Chronic Blog post.

(Interesting to me that UT's tower shooting never came up in the debate. Perhaps because concealed carry permits didn't exist back then, and because numerous Austinites and students came running onto campus with their guns and actually worked with police - albeit to little effect - during the Whitman incident.)

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 03:03:22 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

My Dorm At College (0.00 / 0)

All I know is that if guns were allowed in the mixed aged dorm that I lived in my Freshman year at SMU, we would have had at least two or three killings.  As it was, four individuals had to go to the ER as a result of assaults, all but one of which involved at least on horribly intoxicated party.  (Never mind the arrest of the two guys dealing cocaine.)  I can only imagine the increased carnage that would have resulted if guns had been around.  It certainly wouldn't have been pretty.  

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by: MikeM @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 03:06:08 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

As a UT professor, I'm already sometimes scared (5.00 / 2)

Sometimes you get a student in your class who's not exactly stable. You do your best to get him counseling, and you do your best not to push his buttons. But sometimes you have to. You have to return that exam with a lousy grade. You have to refuse to take that 3-week-late assignment. You have to tell him that he didn't pass the class.

And from now on, when he starts breaking down, you have to pray that he's not armed.  

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by: LSadun @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 04:42:00 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Reply to UT Professor (0.00 / 0)

Has it occurred to you that if the mentally ill student is unstable and decides to shoot you, he/she probably will not check state law to see if it is legal to carry a firearm on campus? We are all exposed to potential violence every day whether at the mall or any other place. Why would you not want the good guys (law abiding citizens) that are on your side to be armed? Law abiding citizens by definition are law abiding. That means they, more than likely, will not shoot you if you make them mad. They have families, careers, and reputations to uphold. Using a firearm in a criminal way would take all of that away from them. On the other hand, criminals or potential criminals are not going to be stopped by a law. They will proceed right on with their selfish agenda. All most of these type of people respect is force or the threat of brute force as a deterrent to their crimes. They do not care about anybody but himself or herself and will do anything wrong if they think they can get away with it without consequences.

There are always exceptions to the rules i.e. good people do turn bad at times. I say that if someone threatens me with force, I would hope to be in the position to defend myself with equal or superior force.

I suggest that you get yorself a gun and learn to use it. You can still pray that no one attacks you, but if they do, you will have some hope of being able to defend yourself.

Thanks for listening.

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by: Carry @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 14:47:28 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Reply to Carry (5.00 / 1)

The original post indicated that professors interact with students who are mentally unstable; that's pretty common, I can tell you after 40 years in university classrooms. As it is, campus police can intervene in threatening situations because they are sworn officers and are armed legally. Under the proposed law, they run the risk of being out-gunned.  The difficulty is that some people with serious mental illnesses do not calculate what they have to uphold, family, jobs, and the like. They act obsessionally and, often, destructively.
Where do you draw the line? "I say that if someone threatens me with force, I would hope to be in the position to defend myself with equal or superior force." What kind of weapons give you "superior force"?
As ALL of the heads of our state-operated colleges and universities have testified, as have campus security officers, the bill will facilitate the escalation of violence on campuses, making it increasingly difficult to recruit first-rate faculty and security personnel. Listen to them.  

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by: texun @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 15:16:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

testifying = prophecising? (0.00 / 0)

The same arguments were made back in 1995 when the entire CHL program was first being developed and being debated.  Groups argued that there would be blood running in the streets and gun fights on every street corner.  That never happened.

Being a law enforcement officer does not make you better trained with a weapon.  Most law enforcement agencies require their officers to qualify with their weapon only once a year.  Most officers don't shoot their gun outside of that qualification.  I, and many CHL holders, go to the range frequently (at least once a month).  I would argue that some CHL holders have a higher level of training and accuracy with their weapon than a law enforcement officer.  And sorry to break it down for you, but CHL holders are also "legally armed."

CHL holders are trained how to respond when confronted by a police officer.  The idea that police officers will begin shooting CHL holders simply means that your police department needs more training on how to react to an active shooter situation.

Texas law has very specific definitions for situations in which you, as a citizen, can use deadly force.  You can't simply pull out your gun and shoot someone because they flipped you the bird.  We have legal responsibilities that go with carrying our handguns are there are very serious legal repercussions for us if we fail to follow the law.

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 15:25:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

This Is a Reply? (0.00 / 0)

Please show me the parts of this item that replies to Reply to Carry.
This poster has an incredibly naive view of a large class of people: CHL holders. It would be great if any large class of citizens were as ideal and as stable as this poster believes them to be. Unfortunately....
He also ignores what he can't handle: "And sorry to break it down for you, but CHL holders are also "legally armed." The debate is over the pending bill and its potential impacts, not over the broader issues of concealed hand gun permits.
"Most law enforcement agencies require their officers to qualify with their weapon only once a year.  Most officers don't shoot their gun outside of that qualification.  I, and many CHL holders, go to the range frequently (at least once a month).  I would argue that some CHL holders have a higher level of training and accuracy with their weapon than a law enforcement officer." I'd like to read what some law enforcement officers have to say about this stunner. It seems to me that taking his argument this far comes close to reducing it to absurdity.

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by: texun @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 15:42:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I never said CHL holders were perfect (0.00 / 0)

I simply said that statistically we are less likely to commit crimes.  It's not an opinion but facts supported by TX DPS.  But we're not perfect.  An incident earlier this week in which a CHL instructor shot his wife is a clear example of this.  But police officers are not perfect either.  And neither are the legislators that write our laws.

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 16:19:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not Birds of a Feather (0.00 / 0)

I'm troubled by your placing the violent CHL instructor and police officers in the same category "not perfect either." Police officers, on and off campus, are fallible, but I seem to have a lot more confidence in them than you do. They work under highly stressful conditions in life-threatening situations, performing well for the most part. I don't intend to defend the lege, but putting them in the "not perfect either" category with the CHL instructor is inaccurate and unfair.
BTW, I'd find it informative so see the sources that provide "facts supported by TX DPS." You might be accurate, but given your tendency to generalize beyond reason, I'd rather look at them myself.

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by: texun @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 17:02:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

DPS provides these statistics on their website (0.00 / 0)

You may view the statistics since 1996 here: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/a...

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 17:14:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Later (0.00 / 0)

I have refered that site reference to a friend who teaches criminology, so one of us will get back to your point.

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by: texun @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 21:53:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

but of course (0.00 / 0)

But it doesn't take a criminologist to do a simple statistical analysis of the numbers.  Converting those numbers to convictions per 100,000 shows a very stark reduction in CHL conviction rates compared to the general population.  From the 2006 numbers:

Overall - The general population over age 21 is over 7 times as likely to commit any offense listed by DPS as are CHLs

Assault - The general population over age 21 is over 8 times as likely to commit an assault as are CHLs

Burglary - The general population over age 21 is over 38 times as likely to commit a burglary as are CHLs

Prohibited Weapons - The general population over age 21 is over 21 times as likely to be convicted of possessing prohibited weapons as are CHLs

Robbery - The general population over age 21 is over 63 times as likely to commit a robbery as are CHLs

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 22:06:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Sidestepping the Real Issue (0.00 / 0)

Yes, the this back and forth sidesteps the real issue that divides people on this issue.  I suspect that the professor wouldn't carry a gun even if he were allowed to do so.  If I were in his situation, I would not.  I view carrying a gun as 1) dangerous because the gun is more likely to be taken form me and used against me than to be used by me; 2) a sign that the bonds of civility that hold our society together are far more broken than they in fact actually are.  In my view, if one needs to carry a gun to be safe in society, then we should move somewhere else.  And as a result of my views on these two subjects, I tend to view anyone who would carry a gun into a normally safe situation with a substantial degree of suspicion.  So when I see someone advocating allowing more open access to guns, I see only increased danger to me, and no increase in safety.  I wonder if the professor isn't in the same boat as I am in terms of attitudes.

Of course, I realize that those who favor expansion of the availability of guns have a different set of attitudes and may feel more safe.  But ya'll are arguing as if there is some objective set of facts that divide people on this issue.  I think instead what divides us is our concept of society and our view of the role of the individual in that society.  

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by: MikeM @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 15:41:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It is a different attitude (0.00 / 0)

I don't see a civilized society when I wake up in the morning.  I see news reports of rapes and murders and robberies and home invasions.  I realize that bad things happen to good people.  I realize that police, while a good asset for solving crimes, are rarely at the right place at the right time to prevent a crime from occurring or to defend an individual that is being attached.  I realize that the only person responsible for my own safety is myself.  I don't go out looking for trouble, but if trouble should come and find me, I at least have the knowledge that I might be able to defend myself rather than having to succumb to whatever the bad guy has in mind.

We like to think that our society is so "civilized."  I don't really see the civility.  When crimes become a rarity, I say there is no need for guns outside of sporting.  But we are nowhere near that level of civility in our society.

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 16:29:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Paranoia (0.00 / 0)

Life is really not so scary.  If I woke up every day thinking I had to carry a gun to be safe, I would go get counseling.  (And maybe some meds!)  

Oh, I am female and NOT AFRAID.

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by: MsInformed @ Thu May 21, 2009 at 13:55:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

seatbelts (0.00 / 0)

I don't wake up every day thinking that I'm going to get in a wreck or worrying excessively about the likelihood of getting in a car crash, but I still buckle my seat belt every time I get in a car.  I have this same mentality when I strap my gun to my belt every morning.

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by: will381796 @ Fri May 22, 2009 at 17:16:05 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Different kinds of risks (5.00 / 2)

If an irate student decides to kill me, he can go home, get a gun, and come back and shoot me. That's a risk I have to live with, and you're right that the rules against carrying guns on campus don't do anything to stop it.

However, the current rules do stop him from already being armed when he gets the bad news about the exam. It's the (common) momentary fits of rage, not the (rare) premeditated acts, that become a heckuva lot more dangerous with concealed carry. Right now, he can pick up a ball point pen from my desk and stab me with it, and I might get a nasty scar, but I won't die. If he's got a gun, there's a good chance that I will. If we both have guns, there's a good chance that we both will die.

In emotionally stressful situations (like finals week), we need to lower the stakes, not have an arms race.  

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by: LSadun @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 17:36:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Guns on Campus (0.00 / 0)

Why do you believe students will be accidentally shot?  Your argument of a legally licensed student shooting someone because he/she feels persecuted is completely inappropriate, and has no business in a discussion on this issue.  Look at the amount of crime committed by people legally licensed to carry a concealed handgun that actually use said gun in the commission of a crime.   It is virtually non-existent.  Criminals do not register a gun, and certainly do not receive a license to carry one.  In fact, a felon is not allowed to own a gun in the first place.  If a student is going to shoot someone on campus, he will bring a gun, regardless of whether or not he has a license. Why will a student, over the age of 21 and legally licensed to carry a gun, be more likely to shoot someone on campus rather than off campus?  Finally, if I am not mistaken, I read in the Statesman that a student was mugged at UT today, ironic that no crime exists on campus.  If Democrats want to lose ground in Texas, all they need to do is begin restricting citizen's rights to own and carry guns.  Listen to former Congressman Charlie Wilson who said the only thing his district wanted was "guns and low taxes."    

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by: TexasReb @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 03:17:21 AM UTC

Where did I make the argument you mention? (0.00 / 0)

In this post, I did not talk about the possibility of students accidentally getting shot.  That's the least of my worries with the guns on campus ideas.

I am worried about the possibility of someone getting mad at someone and then taking out their gun that they carry only because they are allowed to.  But even that isn't my biggest worry.

My biggest worry is that many student bodies feel uncomfortable with the idea, and that universities feel that allowing guns on campus inhibits their ability to provide the best education possible.  As I said, "The Democratic Party is supposed to be the party of education."  That is why I stand where I do on this issue more than anything else.

"Let us tenderly and kindly cherish therefore, the means of knowledge. Let us dare to read, think, speak, and write."  -  John Adams

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by: Michael Hurta @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 03:37:12 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

we don't carry our weapons only because we are allowed to (0.00 / 0)

We carry them for self defense and ONLY for self defense.  This is not the wild west.  We don't pull out our pieces and show them to our buddies for kicks, and most don't go out and advertise that they have CHLs except to close family and friends.

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 15:27:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I know ya'll say that... (0.00 / 0)

But First: I know people who have specifically said if this bill passes, they will get a concealed handgun license specifically so they can have guns on campus.  Second: I feel like there is a subconscious testosterone that makes us want to carry guns, YES it might be primarily for self-defense, but there are other means of self-defense, too.  I studied Tae Kwon Do for over a decade, and I also carry a knife on my keychain all the time.  No defense against a gun, true, but the chances of me getting attacked by a gun are less anyways.

"Let us tenderly and kindly cherish therefore, the means of knowledge. Let us dare to read, think, speak, and write."  -  John Adams

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by: Michael Hurta @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 16:47:17 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

good for you that you feel safe with your tools (0.00 / 0)

But not everyone has the benefit of a decade of hand-to-hand combat under their belt.  Not everyone has the time or the discipline required to master such a method of self defense.  But almost anyone can very quickly learn how to safely use a handgun and with practice, can become proficient in the use of a handgun in self-defense situations.  Why should you be able to limit another individual's ability to lawfully defend themselves with the tools that they have at their disposal?

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 16:52:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

because the University says so (0.00 / 0)

quite frankly, everyone can carry around knives without training.

I think it's a significant point that the universities feel they can't have a proper educational environment with guns on the campus.  I think that's the main reason.  There are other ways to defend yourself.  There are also police, and I worry a bit that if I had a gun I would shoot before calling police in most scenarios.

Moreso, guns are very different than other types of defense in that they require no training or practice in order to kill someone with it.  True, everyone who gets a CHL needs background checks and then they aren't likely, according to statistics, to commit many crimes.  If you want to debate safety, we can talk of the possibility of the 1/1000 CHL holders who might crack in the stressful school environment, which causes significant problems by itself.

But I want to hear why the universities (the experts) are wrong on the education argument, too.

"Let us tenderly and kindly cherish therefore, the means of knowledge. Let us dare to read, think, speak, and write."  -  John Adams

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by: Michael Hurta @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 17:01:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

if they don't know (0.00 / 0)

If the weapon is concealed, as is required by law, then how is there any effect?  Nobody would know.

You could (and most definitely do have)individuals that break the law and bring handguns on campus illegally for self defense purposes, but they keep them concealed.  Do you have a constant fear about these individuals?

I would be more fearful of these individuals than individuals that have been trained, investigated and licensed by the state to carry a weapon.

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 17:13:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm not even sure if Fear is the main argument for Education (0.00 / 0)

I think part of the issue is also that, especially with the rhetoric around this bill, this law would create a perception that students are the ones who are best able to keep themselves safe.

That's not true and it isn't want the university wants its students feeling.  The university would prefer that its students worry more about school than about safety, and that can happen if the university is entirely in charge of safety.

"Let us tenderly and kindly cherish therefore, the means of knowledge. Let us dare to read, think, speak, and write."  -  John Adams

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by: Michael Hurta @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 17:44:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree (0.00 / 0)

They should be worrying about school.  There is no requirement for anybody to begin carrying on campus.  If you don't want to, then nothing for you changes.  University police will still be there doing their job.

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 17:49:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Did you bother to read... (0.00 / 0)

...this comment not a few comments above yours?

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

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by: Karl-Thomas Musselman @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 03:39:32 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm actually very curious (0.00 / 0)

as to the statistics on violent acts or crimes committed by people who were in legal possession of a gun at the time of the crime.  If you can provide a link to the data, I'd be very appreciative.

I have no problem with the logic of advocates of this bill.  That's why I feel strongly that any proponent of such a bill should be equally strong in their support of a provision in Texas law that would prohibit any restriction on the right for those licensed to carry a concealed weapon anywhere in the State of Texas, including government buildings, airports, and flights within the state.  Assuming that it is always safer when law-abiding citizens are permitted to carry guns, then there should be no situation or circumstance excepted from that rule.  Age restrictions should be revisited as well.

"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H.L. Mencken

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by: PI Lawyer @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 11:49:28 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Call 'em out. (5.00 / 2)

Why not call out the Senate Ds that voted for this?  Namely: Gallegos, Hinojosa, Lucio, and Whitmire.  Don't just say that the bill was passed because the "Republican-heavy Senate moved swiftly" on it.  The fact is, had the Ds stuck together and voted against the bill, it'd be DEAD thanks to the two-thirds rule.

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by: Fine Bottled Water @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 14:42:01 PM UTC

And Uresti (0.00 / 0)

was a yes.

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by: Fine Bottled Water @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 15:08:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Indeed (0.00 / 0)

I pointed to Hinojosa and Lucio because they joint authored the bill.  I was not in the Senate at the time of the vote and wanted to make a post, but I made it before seeing who voted for what.

"Let us tenderly and kindly cherish therefore, the means of knowledge. Let us dare to read, think, speak, and write."  -  John Adams

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by: Michael Hurta @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 16:44:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

stop being so naive (0.00 / 0)

Yes, universities are a place for learning and ideally they would be no place for guns.  But we don't live in an ideal world and not every college campus is as safe as UT.  When I turn on the TV every night, I still see news stories about robberies and murders and home invasions, so it's obvious that our world is not safe enough to warrant the elimination of guns altogether.  But, the fact of the matter is, it's not only on-campus that the University's policies can have an impact on someone's safety, but also off campus.  

Have you ever walked through West Campus at 2 AM after a night of studying?  The number of assaults and muggings AROUND campus is astounding.  However, with a CHL, those individuals that are of legal age and have proved to the state through rigorous training and a background check would be able to protect themselves while walking home from the library.  Right now, these individuals must be unarmed and defenseless at all times.  

Yes, UT has a big police force, but think honestly about it, and police are usually only there to write their report about what happened; they very rarely stop a crime from happening.  Knowing that individuals walking home from campus might be armed is a pretty big incentive for these thugs to go elsewhere.

CHL holders are some of the most law-abiding citizens in the state.  Statistics show that a CHL holder is less likely to commit a crime, and they have already proven through the very intensive state and FBI background checks that they do not have a criminal history.

The idea that you might be "uncomfortable" with a fellow student or a professor being armed on campus is rather hilarious.  Do you have the same fear when you go to the grocery store?  Are you scared of the person sitting next to you at the movie theater?  What about when you go to a bank?  1% of the TX population has a CHL, so when you go to the movies, the odds are pretty good that at least one person in that theater has a handgun on them.  Scared now?  The fact is, CHL holders are already able to go so many places that you already go and yet you have no fear of them.  Why?  Because we carry our weapons CONCEALED, just as the law intended.  This would not change if carry was allowed on college campuses.  

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 15:02:48 PM UTC

Uncomfortable (0.00 / 0)

I don't know if the word "uncomfortable" is the right one, but of course we are uneasy when we go other public places about anybody having a gun.  When I go to the bank and see a guard with a gun, even that makes me uneasy.  I'd rather he be sitting there with a radio.  

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by: MikeM @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 15:45:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

what good is an unarmed guard (0.00 / 0)

Interesting you say that, but what use is an unarmed guard?  :-/

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 16:20:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not Naive (0.00 / 0)

Guns are already legal in the West Campus area, so this argument doesn't hold water.
I am disturbed by the writer's distain for law enforcement officers: "Yes, UT has a big police force, but think honestly about it, and police are usually only there to write their report about what happened; they very rarely stop a crime from happening." I know that it is trendy for some people to be down on campus officers, but it is inappropriate at best.
The poster also betrays a general lack of understanding of law enforcement: most crimes are detected after the fact by all agents. The only ones that are statistical exceptions are traffic violations, which are usually observed while they are committed.
 "The idea that you might be "uncomfortable" with a fellow student or a professor being armed on campus is rather hilarious." "Hilarious" is quite a word when it is used to describe the anxiety other people have. As other posters have pointed out, we're also talking about civility in relationships and appropriate sensitivity.

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by: texun @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 15:50:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

yes they are legal (0.00 / 0)

My point is, if you are on campus studying until 2 AM, you must be unarmed while you are on campus in a campus building.  You decide to walk home to your apartment in West Campus.  You are forced to be unarmed during your journey home simply because of the policies in force on campus, despite that you have the legal ability to carry your weapon elsewhere.

My point on police only being there to write the report is that most individuals that are against CHL holders bringing their weapons on campus use the argument of "increasing police" on campus.  Well, that's great, but police cannot be everywhere all the time.  Police may provide something of a deterrent, but the fact that crimes are still committed on and around campus shows that they aren't the solution unless you can get one police officer following each student on campus.  It will also generally take between 3-10 minutes for police to show up to the scene of a crime.  If this were a violent incident, how long do you really think it would take for a thug to hurt you or your loved ones before police responded?  

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 16:26:03 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Education at OK Corral (0.00 / 0)

How often are CHL holders over-powered?  Assailants usually have the advantage of surprise--and of the fact that they can have weapons at the ready.

During a long life, I've only been mugged once and that not on campus; the assailant got me from behind, so a handgun would have been useless to me.  As it was, he probably would have gotten my gun in addition to some loose change and a few credit cards if I had been a CHL holder. BTW, except for a small bump on my head, and a bruised ego, I was not injured. (Which is not to minimize the general severity of assaults, especially on women!)

You are idealizing self-defense situations, beyond the realm of realism and practicality. You are minimizing the additional risks that armed victims might face.

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by: texun @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 17:17:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

This is not about statistics, it's about rights (0.00 / 0)

This argument is beyond the point of "if guns are allowed on campus there's a 44.567% increase that a shooting incident will happen" or that "those who have CHL permits are 9.1% less likely to shoot a perpetrator than to runaway from the scene."

This is about Senator Wentworth compelling the State of Texas to reaffirm everyone's right to keep and bear arms, as reaffirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court last year. It doesn't matter what might happen, what will happen, what isn't going to happen...it's about recognizing that certain settings or situations do not exempt people from exercising their rights as protected by the U.S. Constitution. The reason the Bill of Rights are in the Constitution is to trump all future emotional, rational, and reactionary arguments.

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by: nowayjose @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 16:09:30 PM UTC

Really? (5.00 / 1)

If your reading of the law is correct, then Senator Wentworth's bill is unnecessary.  A legal challenge in federal courts to university regulations regarding CHL would be adequate. Though I oppose the bill, I think that he is accurate in assuming that enabling legislation is necessary, even in the light of the recent USSC decision.  

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by: texun @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 17:23:01 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yes! (0.00 / 0)

Yes, Sen. Wentworth's bill is unnecessary in principle (see 2nd amendment). What he is combating with SB 1164 is the whims and emotions of public higher-education institutions that have unconstitutionally banned weapons on their campuses. SB 1164 doesn't enable people to have guns on campus per se, it merely admits/reaffirms/recognizes that the 2nd amendment and the right of people to defend themselves doesn't take a backseat depending on their setting.

You either have the liberty or you don't, otherwise it's just a law which can be overturned/taken away/struck-down at any given time.  

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by: nowayjose @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 18:39:20 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

but... (0.00 / 0)

Shouldn't that be the job of the courts, and not the legislature?

And if the courts haven't already done that (and I think they have actually said otherwise), than isn't your reading of the law practically inaccurate?

"Let us tenderly and kindly cherish therefore, the means of knowledge. Let us dare to read, think, speak, and write."  -  John Adams

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by: Michael Hurta @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 20:31:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The Wentworth Bill (0.00 / 0)

As dialogue has evolved, it is clear that the bill is unnecessary in both principle and fact. You have ignored your right to file in federal courts on that point. It's a matter of law and not of "whims and emotions."

I wonder if the State of Texas will arm college and university staff and faculty. Though there have been exceptions, AGs in the past have held that state institutions that require employees to wear work-specific clothing or use work-designated equipment are entitled to provision or reimbursement. Does the budget provide for pistol-packing profs?

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by: texun @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 22:03:12 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

ILLOGICAL (0.00 / 0)

I'm afraid that you're taking the passage of this law to a very illogical conclusion.

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by: will381796 @ Wed May 20, 2009 at 22:04:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]