Home

About
- Who We Are
- Community Guidelines
- Right to Respond

Advertising on BOR
- Advertise on BOR
- Buy on all Texas Blogs

Advertisements

Search




Advanced Search


FISA, Gammage, Bell and What It Means To You


by: Sean-Paul Kelley

Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 03:26 PM CST


(Point-counterpoint-counter, counterpoint - promoted by Damon McCullar)

Phillip's description of FISA is largely correct, except for one significant error: warrantless searches can be conducted if a warrant is requested and issued within 72 hours, not 48. Other than that, the first two paragraphs of Phillip's post I do not dispute.

It is the final two grafs that I have a problem with. First Phillip writes:

What's gotten everyone upset lately hasn't been FISA, but President Bush's circumventing FISA. He's started seeking wiretaps on domestic calls (instead of just international calls), and is hiding under the cover of FISA. That's what everyone -- including Republican Sen. Arlen Specter, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee -- has a problem with.

More after the break

ADVERTISEMENT
What has gotten people upset here not that Bush has "started seeking wiretaps on domestic calls (instead of just international calls), and is hiding under the cover of FISA," it's that no one knows what Bush is doing because he is stonewalling. You might find this a minor quibble on my part but it is not. It's the perfect segue into what's wrong with Phillip's second to last graf. He writes:

Now -- to the Agonist. The problem with those questions is that they're scattered. A vote against FISA -- back when Gammage was in office -- wouldn't have been a vote "to give any president the unfettered authority to invade innocent citizen's privacy," as you allege. That sort of unfettered authority didn't happen until recently, with President Bush.

Two things wrong here. Phillip writes that a vote against FISA wouldn't have been a vote to give any president unfettered authority to invade innocent citizen's privacy. But that's exactly the question I pose to Gammage: why did he vote against FISA? And as others have been calling for context, let's do that. This bill was passed in the aftermath of Watergate specifically to curtail the abuses of the Nixon administration and to prevent them from happening again. Furthermore, Gammage had to constantly worry about Ron Paul running against him, and in my opinion, he spent too much time tacking to the right on this. This is all circumstantial evidence, I grant you. This and other evidence still paints a picture that Gammage wasn't siding with Bob Eckhardt, as Texas_Kat notes, but was worried, as I already mentioned, about fighting off a challenge from the right. 

Moreoever, yes, I have my personal interpretation of FISA. As it is now a national issue and has been abused I am inclined to view anyone who voted against it in a negative light and intepret a vote against it as a vote for expansive presidential power than limiting presidential power. That's my bias. I am honest and up front about it. That's how I see this. Did Bob Gammage vote against the bill in conference because he didn't think the bill limited the president enough or did he vote against it because he thought the president was already too limited? I'd like to hear his answer. Just to prove my good faith I'll let him give his answer as a front page post on The Agonist. Seems fair, yeah? 

Look, I support Chris Bell but I am not paid by him. I am a Bell partisan and there is no rule against that. I'm honest and up front about it. I want Chris to win the nomination.

But I'm not one to hide behind an assumed blog name because I'm afraid of upsetting some campaign or another--whatever my motives are. In the end, whoever the nominee is, I will support the Democratic contender 100%, just like I did Kerry (I supported Clark in the primary--who I will likely support again in '08.) And you'll know that I am credible because I called it like I saw it in the primary and didn't hide behind an assumed name.

Calling me a smear artist, as some have done, is simply a tactic of avoiding debate. I've been 100% open and transparent about my motives here and my front page is open to a Gammage rebuttal.

You won't find fairness like that in the so-called "liberal media", now, will you?

Tags: , , , , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Fixed the 48 hours thing... (2.67 / 3)
Made that correction. Sorry, I was working entirely off of memory on that whole post, based on a research paper I wrote last semester.

My main question I raised with your post was simply the way you didn't clearly distinguish between the domestic wire-tapping that everyone's been worried about TODAY, and what was going on 30 years ago. I don't think we should neglect what happened in the past, but we shouldn't get it mixed up with what's happening with our current administration.

Anyways -- you raised the issue, and I imagine you'll get an answer. Cheers to that.

Now, a very great man once said that some people rob you with a fountain pen.


Yeah, I got a lot more of an (2.00 / 2)
answer than I bargained for! LOL. Mamma told me to keep my big mouth shut. But she didn't say anything about blogging!

The price of apathy towards government is to be ruled by evil men. ~Plato

Fairness? (1.88 / 8)
"I want Chris to win the nomination."

And obviously will stoop to anything to try to fool enough people into voting for him.  By attacking Gammage. 

As for the comparison of yourself to the media, I think you have confused "slanting" stories with something admirable.  Slanting stories usually gets a reporter fired very quickly.  Consider yourself fired.


No one ever got fired for slanting (1.33 / 3)
a media report. They got fired for having a liberal bias. Just ask Phil Donohue, the opposite of your idol, Baby Snooks, Bill O'Reilly.

[ Parent ]
Bootstrapping a flagrantly false statement from another site (2.20 / 5)
from the same smear machine isn't proof of anything.

In fact, specifically avoid checking the facts seems to be your stock in trade, I'm sorry to say.

The question here is whether you are willfully ignorant or merely gullible. 

Bob Gammage voted with Bob Eckhardt, Jim Mattox, Jake Pickle, Kiki de la Garza, Jim Wright on HR 7308 -- the House Bill submitted on the same issue that specifically required the judiciary to be part of the process.  The Senate Bill allowed for the current confusion over executive privilege.  Looks like Bob was right.

If Bob Eckhardt was still alive, he'd be posting on BOR himself to kick your butt.


I don't see you laying your (1.33 / 3)
real identity on the line Texas Cat, now do I? So, that's pretty much proof of nothing, 'cept that you can type.

[ Parent ]
More people in Texas know me than know you (2.50 / 4)
I daresay, Bambino. (Is that really your given name?)

My 'identity' isn't a secret, but I'm not a fan of spam. 

I'll qualify that for you....

I don't often travel in 'limousine liberal' circles.... more of an old-style populist Democrat really....

I'm well known enough to people who are real Democrats, old enough to know a lot of the history of the Party in Texas, and smart enough to be able to tell the difference between a truth and a lie.

So save the snark .... it's what limo-libs  resort to when they have nothing productive to say.


[ Parent ]
Texas_Kat howzabout this? (2.33 / 3)
in this post you said:

Word to the wise:  Anytime you see the name "Bob Eckhardt" associated with a vote, assume the vote was pro-civil liberties and pro-privacy.  Please note that Bob Eckhardt voted the same way Gammage did.

D'oh! Can you explain this:

It's all there in black and white. Gammage voted against Rep. Eckhardt on this one. Hmmmm. That's curious, no?

On Jan. 19, 1978, Mr. Gammage voted against a Democratic amendment to delete language allowing warrantless searches and seizures and to substitute language permitting such actions by
enforcing offers when there were reasonable grounds to believe that a person had committed or was attempting to commit an offense in the officers presence or view. The House adopted (215-131) this amendment to the Fish and Wildlife Administration budget.(RV 1, HR 2329, 1978, CQ, pp. 238-39)

Any other questions?

The price of apathy towards government is to be ruled by evil men. ~Plato


[ Parent ]
You're so cute (2.50 / 4)
There's 2 things wrong with your post.

1) I don't read upside down (tell Jason next time he sends you one of this little snippets from the Congressional record to scan it right side up

and

2) I don't make snap judgments about a vote without some independent research (something you should do more of if you intend to be a 'blogger of stature').  So far, you're moving down the scale from 'potentially interesting and informed' to 'amateur that will believe anything'.  The basement of 'political commentary' includes stalwart bloggers for hire as Jeff Gannon.

As Mr. Martin said on another post, the more sophisticated political watcher wants to know context, circumstances and something about the character of the man before making a judgment based on a single snippet of history.

These important issues demand more critical thinking than you seem to want to engage in. 

Too bad, it was a promising start.


[ Parent ]
You don't read upside down (1.50 / 2)
and you don't know how to use Adobe either. And you're calling me confused.

The price of apathy towards government is to be ruled by evil men. ~Plato

[ Parent ]
Wow, y'all seem to travel in packs. (1.57 / 7)
Whenever someone posts someting remotely negative about Gammage there is an immediate outrage, calls for libel campaigns, and all kinds of a brou-ha-ha. Very, very, interesting. Seems to me that Baby Snookers, energyeyecon, MtClint and the Trey seem to be a there own little Gammage bully crew. Like Greg Wythe called you guys (and gals) out: Oh, and if the fine folks of the Gammage campaign team are going to be commenting, by all means, let's see some full disclosure yourselves. Fake IDs (three of 'em) from the same IP address? Really now.

No wonder you didn't comment at The Agonist. You knew I'd catch on to your game.

Y'all basically run around in a pack and bully people into submission so your candidate doesn't has to answer the questions of his record. I played fair and answered your criticisms in good faith, but you didn't. You still continue to sling around accusations. Why are you hiding? And why won't your candidate answer the question?

Like I said, come out and play, tell us who you really are, because until then, you are a group of bullies hiding behind anonymity.

The price of apathy towards government is to be ruled by evil men. ~Plato


This Democrat speaking for himself and calling them like I see them (2.33 / 3)
Its too bad really that you appear congenitally unable to address this issue in anything resembling an honest fashion. 

And you Bell boys and girls need to get your stories straight - first anyone calling bullsh!t on your disingenous framing is a crybaby - and now we are bullies?

If you had anything to present to persuadables besides ad hominem attacks on other Democrats I suppose you would have offered it by now. 


[ Parent ]
Calling Bullshit on this (2.50 / 4)
I've not been hiding behind multiple identities. You can email me ANYTIME at trey@keepaustinblue.org. When I post it's under either original TREY on the old site or The Trey on the new. Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I'm supporting Gammage but I'm not paid staff.

You and Greg have done a great job of editorializing while asking a question. It's not so much the question as it is the way in which you ask it. Now that I know you're supporting Chris, I will take everything you write with a grain of salt. No big deal. You're not legitimately concerned with recieving an answer, you're campaigning. Now that I know the lay of the land, it's a lot easier to not take you seriously.

As for not commenting on your site, I didn't feel like giving you the traffic. You posted it to BOR and that's where it needed to be answered.

If you don't believe me on the identity thing, PLEASE feel to check with KT or Phillip.



[ Parent ]
True (3.00 / 1)
Trey is who he says he is.  Baby Snooks is crazy as usual, and there are more pro-gammage readers of BOR than Bell, so put that all together...

Please read the Community Guidelines and How to Rate Comments.

[ Parent ]
KT, I kinda figured that but it'sa good (2.33 / 3)
to hear you say it. We need to add a few Bell folks to the BOR crowd. I aim to fix that.

The price of apathy towards government is to be ruled by evil men. ~Plato

[ Parent ]
And also, thanks for hosting this (3.00 / 2)
it's been fun to talk about and debate the issues here. The new site design rocks!!!!

The price of apathy towards government is to be ruled by evil men. ~Plato

[ Parent ]
You meant to say? (2.33 / 3)
You meant to say crazy like a fox, I'm sure.

[ Parent ]
Lay of the land indeed. (2.33 / 3)
Now that I know you're supporting Chris, I will take everything you write with a grain of salt. No big deal. You're not legitimately concerned with recieving an answer, you're campaigning. Now that I know the lay of the land, it's a lot easier to not take you seriously.

As for not commenting on your site, I didn't feel like giving you the traffic.

My reply: Now that I know you are supporting Bob, I will take everything you write with a grain of salt, as well. You're also not legitimately concerned with receiving an answer, your campaigning. And because you are running with a pack of bullies it's a lot easier to not take you seriously. As for not commenting on my site: I don't need the traffic, I get plenty already from people who have substantive debates about issues across party, and often national lines.

I'm not usually an ass and I don't usually engage in snark. But I've received nothing but both of those since I posted. And then posted again in good faith a second time. So, f*^k it. Why be nice? 

Personally, I'd love to see BOR get the traffic. The more traffic for the Texas Progressive Alliance the better. And I'll be sure to get KT on my radio show soon. Because in the end we are all Democrats and we have to beat Republicans in November. That's the key.

The price of apathy towards government is to be ruled by evil men. ~Plato


[ Parent ]
Then again, KT, I don't have much (3.00 / 1)
credibility so my flattery might not be worth much! LOL.

The price of apathy towards government is to be ruled by evil men. ~Plato

[ Parent ]
Pack of Bullies? (3.00 / 1)
Sean, there's just me, no pack. I have a feeling I know one of the people who've been commenting but I'm not entirely sure.

"Because in the end we are all Democrats and we have to beat Republicans in November. That's the key."

I couldn't agree more. That's why, if we're going to ask questions about past votes made by Bell and Gammage why not keep it civil? My problem was never that you were asking about the FISA vote... it was the way you asked it. I don't expect hugs and kisses but at least the benefit of the doubt before you demonize someone as voting 'to give any president the unfettered authority to invade innocent citizen's privacy?'

Sean, I haven't been snarky. If you're looking for a reason to be nice, use this one... we're all on the same team.


[ Parent ]
Exactly (2.00 / 2)
what I said in another comment. Also, if you look at his latest entry, he's entirely changed his question.

Now, a very great man once said that some people rob you with a fountain pen.

[ Parent ]
I didn't change the question. (3.00 / 1)
It remains the same as it was in the original post:

I want to make this clear that this is not an attack on Bob Gammage, I just want to know why he thought FISA was such a bad idea back then? And does he still stand by his vote?

The only thing I did was add some context as to why I framed the question as pointedly as I did. I framed the question the way I did because it's a raw issue for me. If this were Bell he'd not have my support anymore over an issue like this. It's not the candidate that makes me feel as strongly as I do about it, it's the issue. Heck, Bob Barr is one of my heroes right now becuase he's defying his party and calling the president to account for this.

The price of apathy towards government is to be ruled by evil men. ~Plato


[ Parent ]
A Bald Faced Lie (2.00 / 2)
Sean-Paul you engage in sophistry on par with Bagdad Bob at his finest:

"What it looks like here is that Bob Gammage is another one of those fair weather Democrats like Henry Cuellar (George Bush's best friend) who say they are Democrats but vote with Republicans."

But, gawrsh fellas thar ain't no attack there!


[ Parent ]
Well, Trey, the reason (3.00 / 2)
I included you in as one of the bullies is that you appeared in this post with a slightly different name. It irritated me. But, I'll extend the olive branch and the benefit of the doubt if you are wililng to do the same with me and accept that my reaction and framing is due to the issue and not the candidate which you would certainly see if you visited my blog. And listened to me on the radio.

Deal?

The price of apathy towards government is to be ruled by evil men. ~Plato


[ Parent ]
yeah, ditched the 'original' (0.00 / 0)
When BOR went to the new site I changed the ID. There was a nutjob who happened to have my name so original was only to differentiate between myself and the aforementioned psycho.


[ Parent ]
Ahhh, I can see (0.00 / 0)
clearly now.

The price of apathy towards government is to be ruled by evil men. ~Plato

[ Parent ]
Go back and read your original post (2.33 / 3)
And where ever you have Gammage, insert Bell, and where ever you reference a 30 year old vote on FISA, insert similar prose regarding "Bell voting in favor of extortionate collection practices after predatory lending" and reference Bell's vote in favor of the finance lobby's pet bill for bankruptcy 'reform.'

[ Parent ]
don't think gammage is a true Democrat? (3.20 / 5)
check out the photos section on his website. It seems like he has been involved in nearly every Democratic campaign -- winning AND losing -- in the last three decades.

Sorry Kelley... (3.00 / 1)
You got schooled. Your posts clearly suggested that Gammage's vote against FISA was one for unlimited executive authority. Although I don't think that arguments about a candidate's record should be off-limits, this appears to have been a clear misrepresentation, and it crossed the line. By all appearances, Gammage was supporting a more restrictive version of FISA. Perhaps there is another way to read the votes, but I sure havent heard you suggest it.
For more relevant info to the issues that might confront a governor, I suggest you mine the Texas Supreme Court opinions.
Full disclosure
I am an uncommitted democrat with no ties to either campaign, and no influence, and I lean (increasingly)toward Gammage.

Connect With BOR
Your source for Texas politics.

On Facebook: BOR
On Twitter: @BOR
On the Go: Mobile App

Upcoming BOR Events

"Do I Look Illegal?"
Arizona GOP Debate Watch

Wednesday, February 22
6:00-9:00 p.m.
Angie's Restaurant
1307 E. 7th Street
RSVP on Facebook

Save The Date:
Super Tuesday Super Watch Party!
Tuesday, March 6
6:00-10:00 p.m.
Scholz Garten
1607 San Jacinto



Menu

Make a New Account

Username:

Password:



Forget your username or password?


Shared On Facebook

Advertisement

Best of Texas Left
- (Complete Directory)
- B & B
- Bay Area Houston
- Blue Bloggin
- Bluedaze
- Brains and Eggs
- Capitol Annex
- Collin County Democrats
- Collin County Observer
- Community Forum
- Dog Canyon
- Dos Centavos
- Easter Lemming Liberal
- Eye on Williamson County
- Feet to the Fire
- Grading Texas
- Greg's Opinion
- Grits for Breakfast
- Half Empty
- Houtopia
- In the Pink Texas
- Kiss My Big Blue Butt
- Letters from Texas
- McBlogger
- Mean Rachel
- Musings
- North Texas Liberal
- Off the Kuff
- Panhandle Truth Squad
- Para Justicia y Libertad!
- Pink Dome
- San Antonio Mayor
- South Texas Chisme
- StoudDemBlog
- Texas Clover Leaf
- Texas Kaos
- The Caucus Blog
- There..Already
- Three Wise Men
Best of Texas Right
- Blogs of War
- BlogHouston
- Boots and Sabers
- Lone Star Times
- Publius TX
- Rick Perry vs the World
- Safety for Dummies
- Slightly Rough
- Urban Grounds
Other Texas Reads
- Burka Blog
- D Magazine
- DOT Show
- Statesman Elections
- Strong Political Analysis
- Texas Monthly
- Texas Observer
- The Texas Blue
- Quorum Report Daily Buzz
Around Austin
- Austin Bloggers
- Austin Chronicle
- Austin Contrarian
- Austin Metblogs
- Austin on Two Wheels
- Austin Real Estate Blog
- Austin Statesman
- Austin Texas Bike Shit Stuff
- Austin Towers
- Austinist
- Capital MetroBlog
- Daily Texan
- Do512
- Downtown Austin Blog
- East Austinite
- Elise Hu
-
Flash Mob Austin
- Keep Austin Blue
- M1EK
- Travis County Democrats
- University Democrats
TX Progressive Orgs
- ACLU Legislative Blog
- Atticus Circle
- Criminal Justice Coalition
- Equality Texas
- NOW Texas
- PFAW Texas
- Public Citizen
- SEIU Texas
- Tejano Insider
- Texas AFT
- Texas HDCC
- Texas Watch
- TFN
- TSTA
- TSEU
- Texas Young Democrats
- United Ways of Texas
TX Elections/Returns
- TX Returns 1992-present
- TX Media/Candidate List

- Bexar County
- Collin County
- Dallas county
- Denton County
- El Paso County
- Fort Bend County
- Harris County
- Jefferson County
- Tarrant County
- Travis County

- CNN 1998 Returns
- CNN 2000 Returns
- CNN 2002 Returns
- CNN 2004 Returns
- CNN 2006 Returns
- CNN 2008 Returns
Traffic Ratings
- Alexa Rating
- Quantcast Ratings
-
Syndication

Powered by: SoapBlox